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Thread: Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoppaTot View Post
    My guess is the people that do this, also use "drop nothing on death" as an option as well. Such a lazy way to play imo.
    This option is only possible in singeplayer with a modlet. You can choose between deleting everything, dropping everything or just dropping the backpack. And if you use a modlet to set that you can also go to debug mode and teleport.

  2. #332
    Inventor PoppaTot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipClaw View Post
    This option is only possible in singeplayer with a modlet. You can choose between deleting everything, dropping everything or just dropping the backpack. And if you use a modlet to set that you can also go to debug mode and teleport.
    learn something new everyday lol. I always play with the setting "Drop Everything".

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungryZombie View Post
    I'm not sure I'm following you. You are saying someday we will have bandits that will radar detect you, all beat upon the weakest block in your base and pour through the wall like the zombies do now and that's going to be better? It's not really the type of enemy that's the issue I think.
    This is a very good point. A few nights ago, I experienced a horde night that made me realise the AI has real time X-ray vision:

    I holed myself up in a small room and the zombies of course started bashing on the door because that is the weakest link. As they were bashing, I was repairing it, and when I ran out of wood, I popped a barb wire block over the entrance. They immediately stopped bashing on the door and started concentrating on a particular block in the wall. I popped a barb wire block over that, and they immediately stopped and moved on to another one, and so it went.

    Zombies should be dumb. I think most of us (that are reasonable) can agree there, but not even bandits should be able to see through the wall and magically know that there is barb wire on the other side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Technically, since they always stated that this was just the preliminary step in the new AI and pathfinding and never stated anywhere that it was the final product you really didn’t have to point it out so they can fix it. They were always going to fix it. You pointing it out is just to make yourself feel better.

    Even psychologists can’t get anything accomplished in less than nine sessions....
    I hope it is a priority for the devs because at this point, I no longer want to go through horde night. I know you can exploit them, but that's not my style.
    Last edited by hotpoon; 01-25-2019 at 02:52 PM. Reason: typo

  4. #334
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungryZombie View Post
    I'm not sure I'm following you. You are saying someday we will have bandits that will radar detect you, all beat upon the weakest block in your base and pour through the wall like the zombies do now and that's going to be better? It's not really the type of enemy that's the issue I think.
    Let me see if I can help.

    Effective AI has perfect information available to it but through programming it “makes mistakes” in order to appear to not have perfect information.

    Before A17 there was no perfect information. Entities got stuck or went in circles because there was no pathing code to speak of. Faatal created the pathing code which has given the AI the perfect information it needs. There was time to do a little bit of programming to mask that perfect information but it will be an ongoing project to make it so the zombies behave randomly, stupidly, and not perfectly—and yet also not get stuck on random terrain oddities or start spinning or walking in circles. It is going to take time and it is a very rare game that gets the perfect balance which is why you often here gamers complaining about cheating AI. The AI isn’t cheating it’s just that the restraints on the perfect information it always has broke down in that situation.

    So knowing the weak point and zeroing in on that point every single time is not the goal for any entity in the game (except maybe an engineer class bandit....) However, It is a necessity for the information to exist so that a full spectrum of varied behaviors can be coded in by withholding various amounts of that perfect information.

    Now, to the naive, it will appear like faatal is going to be playing a game of one upmanship with the players as he stops exploits and works on getting the enemies to behave at the level he wants. But I assure you he isn’t battling against anyone and his goal is to have a robust and varied spectrum of behaviors that will challenge the players but not feel unfair.

  5. #335
    Guppycurian Forum Whore Guppycur's Avatar
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    Let me see if I can help you without overusing the word "perfect".

    Faatal created a BASELINE AI that does a lot of crap, so that if certain aspects are taken away, it will simulate bandits. If certain other aspects are taken away, it will simulate zombies.

    Right now we seem to be testing the baseline AI.

  6. #336
    Fun Pimps Staff Gazz's Avatar
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    What Guppy said. (anyone know which reality this is? =)

    Getting the AI working at all means here that you can drop an entity into a voxel world and it can successfully navigate/destroy obstacles and complete the objective of snacking on the players' brains.

  7. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Let me see if I can help.

    Effective AI has perfect information available to it but through programming it “makes mistakes” in order to appear to not have perfect information.

    Before A17 there was no perfect information. Entities got stuck or went in circles because there was no pathing code to speak of. Faatal created the pathing code which has given the AI the perfect information it needs. There was time to do a little bit of programming to mask that perfect information but it will be an ongoing project to make it so the zombies behave randomly, stupidly, and not perfectly—and yet also not get stuck on random terrain oddities or start spinning or walking in circles. It is going to take time and it is a very rare game that gets the perfect balance which is why you often here gamers complaining about cheating AI. The AI isn’t cheating it’s just that the restraints on the perfect information it always has broke down in that situation.

    So knowing the weak point and zeroing in on that point every single time is not the goal for any entity in the game (except maybe an engineer class bandit....) However, It is a necessity for the information to exist so that a full spectrum of varied behaviors can be coded in by withholding various amounts of that perfect information.

    Now, to the naive, it will appear like faatal is going to be playing a game of one upmanship with the players as he stops exploits and works on getting the enemies to behave at the level he wants. But I assure you he isn’t battling against anyone and his goal is to have a robust and varied spectrum of behaviors that will challenge the players but not feel unfair.
    Sounds reasonable and it's pretty much what I had assumed. I was probing to verify if this was the case though.

  8. #338
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppycur View Post
    Let me see if I can help you without overusing the word "perfect".

    Faatal created a BASELINE AI that does a lot of crap, so that if certain aspects are taken away, it will simulate bandits. If certain other aspects are taken away, it will simulate zombies.

    Right now we seem to be testing the baseline AI.
    uh...perfect.

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Let me see if I can help.

    Effective AI has perfect information available to it but through programming it “makes mistakes” in order to appear to not have perfect information.

    Before A17 there was no perfect information. Entities got stuck or went in circles because there was no pathing code to speak of. Faatal created the pathing code which has given the AI the perfect information it needs. There was time to do a little bit of programming to mask that perfect information but it will be an ongoing project to make it so the zombies behave randomly, stupidly, and not perfectly—and yet also not get stuck on random terrain oddities or start spinning or walking in circles. It is going to take time and it is a very rare game that gets the perfect balance which is why you often here gamers complaining about cheating AI. The AI isn’t cheating it’s just that the restraints on the perfect information it always has broke down in that situation.

    So knowing the weak point and zeroing in on that point every single time is not the goal for any entity in the game (except maybe an engineer class bandit....) However, It is a necessity for the information to exist so that a full spectrum of varied behaviors can be coded in by withholding various amounts of that perfect information.

    Now, to the naive, it will appear like faatal is going to be playing a game of one upmanship with the players as he stops exploits and works on getting the enemies to behave at the level he wants. But I assure you he isn’t battling against anyone and his goal is to have a robust and varied spectrum of behaviors that will challenge the players but not feel unfair.
    Thanks for that explanation Roland. That's a relief to hear.
    I wonder sometimes if our needless complaints could be prevented if you had a sticky thread with an FAQ of current issues that the devs are working towards. Not just listing the current issues like the patch notes do, but a nice explanation of what the the devs intent is around those issues - just like you did with this one. Just a thought.

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Let me see if I can help.

    Effective AI has perfect information available to it but through programming it “makes mistakes” in order to appear to not have perfect information.

    Before A17 there was no perfect information. Entities got stuck or went in circles because there was no pathing code to speak of. Faatal created the pathing code which has given the AI the perfect information it needs. There was time to do a little bit of programming to mask that perfect information but it will be an ongoing project to make it so the zombies behave randomly, stupidly, and not perfectly—and yet also not get stuck on random terrain oddities or start spinning or walking in circles. It is going to take time and it is a very rare game that gets the perfect balance which is why you often here gamers complaining about cheating AI. The AI isn’t cheating it’s just that the restraints on the perfect information it always has broke down in that situation.

    So knowing the weak point and zeroing in on that point every single time is not the goal for any entity in the game (except maybe an engineer class bandit....) However, It is a necessity for the information to exist so that a full spectrum of varied behaviors can be coded in by withholding various amounts of that perfect information.

    Now, to the naive, it will appear like faatal is going to be playing a game of one upmanship with the players as he stops exploits and works on getting the enemies to behave at the level he wants. But I assure you he isn’t battling against anyone and his goal is to have a robust and varied spectrum of behaviors that will challenge the players but not feel unfair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guppycur View Post
    Let me see if I can help you without overusing the word "perfect".

    Faatal created a BASELINE AI that does a lot of crap, so that if certain aspects are taken away, it will simulate bandits. If certain other aspects are taken away, it will simulate zombies.

    Right now we seem to be testing the baseline AI.

    I see what you are saying now.

    The A16.4 zombies used to:
    Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).
    Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).
    Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).
    Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

    But that was not good enough, they had to make them totally freaking omniscient.
    Now the A17.1 zombies:
    Use a GPS tracker to find you no matter where you are at.
    Laser focus on the shortest possible path to the target.
    Focus all damage into the smallest possible area to penetrate the target.
    Have diamond tipped claws that can dig through solid steel like butter, because Why not?

    Then the plan is to teach them to:
    Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).
    Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).
    Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).
    Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

    Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
    Last edited by Grue; 01-26-2019 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Formatting.

  11. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grue View Post
    I see what you are saying now.

    The A16.4 zombies used to:
    Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).
    Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).
    Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).
    Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

    But that was not good enough, they had to make them totally freaking omniscient.
    Now the A17.1 zombies:
    Use a GPS tracker to find you no matter where you are at.
    Laser focus on the shortest possible path to the target.
    Focus all damage into the smallest possible area to penetrate the target.
    Have diamond tipped claws that can dig through solid steel like butter, because Why not?

    Then the plan is to teach them to:
    Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).
    Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).
    Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).
    Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

    Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
    Yeah, because in a16.4 it was great fun:
    Watching as they would, get stuck on air?
    Run in circles when you were right next to them ground level?
    Them walk up to you, then turn around and just wonder away.. well because?
    Yeah, those were the days with them and their "like zombie" behavior, sure wish we could go back to that..

  12. #342
    Leader Royal Deluxe's Avatar
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    Be happy that they are so smart.
    If not with that current damage they would be a pain in the Azz

  13. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grue View Post
    I see what you are saying now.

    The A16.4 zombies used to:
    Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).
    Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).
    Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).
    Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

    But that was not good enough, they had to make them totally freaking omniscient.
    Now the A17.1 zombies:
    Use a GPS tracker to find you no matter where you are at.
    Laser focus on the shortest possible path to the target.
    Focus all damage into the smallest possible area to penetrate the target.
    Have diamond tipped claws that can dig through solid steel like butter, because Why not?

    Then the plan is to teach them to:
    Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).
    Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).
    Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).
    Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

    Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
    It was spelled out by no less than three different people so I'm not sure what else could be said to make you understand.

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    So, kidding aside, I just don't play like that. I don't track or even think about where xp is coming from. I'm very interested in fact in a modlet somebody mentioned for removing the xp announcement in the lower right corner.

    I guess our brains are wired differently. I just don't worry or analyze what percentage of my experience comes from which source and I really believe it is because I am not strategically trying to be efficient about gaining xp. I play the game. I cook when I need to. I chop trees when I need to. I kill zombies when I need to. I explore and clear POI's for fun and for looting. I mine for resources as I need to. I really do play a game full of varied activities and I see it all going into my avatar's gain in experience. So when I take a perk in cooking it is because I as a player want my avatar to be better at that and I view the points as being an aggregate of all my activities.

    Now for someone who does focus on the single best method of gaining xp and so who does that one activity repetitive for the purpose of gaining xp points I can see how they might feel that they are mining to learn bacon and eggs. But I don't play that way and as long as people are talking about core gameplay, I don't think that playing the game to repetitively focus on one activity to rapidly gain levels is the core of this game regardless of the model chosen for player progression.

    I would invite you to go back to Alpha 10 and play that game and figure out why you are doing the activities you are doing when there is zero xp or player levels to be had. Is the gameplay all worthless without xp to be earned? Many of the people with multiple thousands of hours put those hours in during Alphas 1 - 10 before there ever was any xp and somehow they found value in mining, harvesting, building, exploring, looting, etc. without worrying about where xp was coming from and how much you got for it.

    I still play pretty much the same way I did back then as far as my purposes and goals. So I can tell you that when I spend points for anything in the game those points feel like they came from all the activities I do to become a more experienced survivalist and I never feel a break of immersion that I'm spending THIS point from killing 10 zombies in order to be able to build a bicycle now.

    I'm not saying the system is perfect. I think it can be improved. But the current system is great for me and the way I play. I'm sorry it doesn't work for how you like to play.
    What you are describing is essentially an organic user experience.
    When you need to gather supplies you go mine, chop wood etc.
    If you need to build things, you build.
    If you feel like running around scavenging, you go explore.
    When you need to shoot/stab/bludgeon something, you had better do it.

    These activities would happen without any XP system to prompt you or gates to slow you down, A10 for example.
    Then the XP/Perk system was implemented using learn by doing which flowed logically.

    When you need to gather supplies you go mine, chop wood, and you got better at using mining tools, and if good enough qualified for some perks.
    If you need to build things, you build, and you got better at using construction tools, and if good enough qualified for some new recipes and materials.
    If you feel like running around scavenging, you go explore, and athletics goes, scavenging goes up, appropriate perks become available...
    When you need to shoot/stab/bludgeon something, you get better at whatever weapon you are actually using, appropriate perks become available...
    All of these progressions (more or less) made senses, because they were in line with the organic user experience, thus they did not feel forced.

    You were simply playing the game, and got better at skills by actually practicing those skills. Minimal level gating necessary.

    The new XP/Perk process is disjointed from the activity, so now you are forced to stop mining because it is painfully inefficient, to go kill things in order to get better at mining.

    I find myself looking for extra zombies to kill so I can learn how to cook bacon and eggs!

    Now there are level gates and perk walls to do even the most basic stuff.
    Why must I wait 10 levels without a forge?
    Why wait 20 levels before I can make basic iron tools?
    Why are these two separate ♥♥♥♥ing perks!? I have the forge, but do not know how to use it yet?
    Why should I need to spend points to learn how to get seeds?
    What the hell do either of these have to do with "fortitude"?

    The game is now stuck in low gear and forces an extreme XP grind on top of the already somewhat tedious resource grind that was already a big part of the game. Add that to the laser-guided-bunker-buster hordes and might as well not even play til the next patch.
    Last edited by Grue; 01-26-2019 at 04:12 PM.

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungryZombie View Post
    It was spelled out by no less than three different people so I'm not sure what else could be said to make you understand.
    Oh, I am sorry, did I use too many words and confuse you again?
    The zombies already acted like zombies.
    No need to program an elaborate AI so you can teach them to act like zombies.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tin View Post
    Yeah, because in a16.4 it was great fun:
    Watching as they would, get stuck on air?
    Run in circles when you were right next to them ground level?
    Them walk up to you, then turn around and just wonder away.. well because?
    Yeah, those were the days with them and their "like zombie" behavior, sure wish we could go back to that..
    I never witnessed any of those problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Deluxe View Post
    Be happy that they are so smart.
    If not with that current damage they would be a pain in the Azz
    Yeah, good point.
    Last edited by Grue; 01-26-2019 at 04:26 PM.

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