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Thread: Game feels like its punishing me for levelling up

  1. #76
    Colony Founder Jedo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Deluxe View Post
    This whole leveling of enemys is the most stupid development in game history. <snip>
    What I liked about Borderlands 2 was their enemy scaling. It moved in plateaus. At times, you would get your ass kicked, so you had to be more strategic. Eventually, though, you got to a point (whether through gear or abilities) when you were godlike even as you progressed to "harder" levels. At some point, though, the balance shifted back to where you had to be careful again. That game is still one of my favorite games to play with a team.

  2. #77
    Zombie Hunter Khulkhuum's Avatar
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    I do agree that there are so many voices spreading word that it is getting too tough for them at some point. @Cirion posted a neat idea how to improve things, but let me share a short story with you all.

    Once upon a time i discovered a fun game called Gundemonium. Beautiful anime graphics placed into a bullet hell shooter. I played the game when i had a pretty bad PC, which meant that it ran in low FPS (ideal for such games). Thus i used the mechanic of friction quite often - making bullets fly very close to the heart (which when hit you lose HP) would increase the multiplier of the score. I was pretty fond of completing the game at the time this way, especially as increasing the multiplier increased the difficulty quite a lot.

    After a few years i played the game again, this time in standard >=30 FPS and tried using friction as much as i could to get the best score again. Even with added experience of many other games i played during that past few years, i was constantly being destroyed even at the first levels. Only after quite a few hours i decided to not use the friction so much and i was able to beat a couple levels more - in lower difficulty it had because of this.

    So in summary - we sometimes aim for something that we think we can easily achieve, especially as the beginning more often than not is pretty chill. Depending on our gaming skills and proper management of skill points (if present in a game) sometimes we easily fit into the game and don't have many problems, but sometimes we end up with a wall that blocks us from achieving further progress. In such a situation, it's always good to look at the whole picture and verify what is going wrong and if there are any ways to improve it.

    Hell, we can start all over and try a new approach if that's too much. Cut your losses and go again.

  3. #78
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    How hard would it be to mod the gamestage calculation to make it only increase with zombie kills? I might try that, so I can see how it plays out.

  4. #79
    Colony Founder RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Deluxe View Post
    This whole leveling of enemys is the most stupid development in game history.

    The player should start with 50% of all perks/abilitys and be able to reach 80% of all abilitys, balanced a way that he can dominate from day 1 on with decent equip. The zombies should not level at all. But in such a gameplay there should be pois that have exclusive loot and stronger enemys.

    Am i the only one who pacepalm at every game the player becomes stronger and the enemys too ?
    Where is there the sense except wasting a lot of development time ?

    But i take it as it is. I guess no developer would do this if not enough people would want it. I cant understand twitter and co too.
    No, you are not the only one. Level scaling is just a lazy, crude way to control the game's difficulty and gameplay experience of the player. Contrary to popular, unimaginative belief, it is NOT the only way to present challege to the player at late levels. My main gripe with level scaling, is that progression and enemies feel artificial and the virtual world less believable.

    Bethesda games use it a lot. In TES for example, Morrowind had the "right" kind of scaling, as immersion-friendly as possible, Oblivion had the laziest and most artificial, Skyrim had a mix of both. Thanks to the modding community the latter games were "fixed".

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by RestInPieces View Post
    No, you are not the only one. Level scaling is just a lazy, crude way to control the game's difficulty and gameplay experience of the player. Contrary to popular, unimaginative belief, it is NOT the only way to present challege to the player at late levels. My main gripe with level scaling, is that progression and enemies feel artificial and the virtual world less believable.
    I agree with both of you. Level scaling is a lazy way to artificially make the world "harder".

  6. #81
    Fun Pimps Staff madmole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirion View Post
    Preach it man. This right here is the main problem with the current system as it is IMHO.

    In A16, it was a non issue. If you wanted to get better at mining? Just mine. Now, you have to get mining 69er, and the only way to get that is to spend points on strength, and points are at a premium. Mining is almost the most important thing you need to do in this game, making mining 69er NOT OPTIONAL, but MANDATORY, thus pointing points in STR is literally required. Well between that and INT which is also mandatory to function in this game (especially single player) you're left with no HP, armor resistance, or ranged weapon damage, nor stealth. However, you're at a high gamestage, which leaves you facing green zombies with little to no points in HP, damage resistance, stealth, or ranged weapon damage.

    I suppose the consolation prize is that you have melee weapon damage, and can use a sledgehammer. HOWEVER, again - you have no points in stealth, so you maybe will get one or two kills before you wake everybody up. And good luck against high end zombies with no HP especially on hard difficulties. Green Cops can do 100+hp damage a hit easily with no armor. And did I mention you have no HP or armor? So, one hit = RIP

    I mean let's think about it from another angle.

    The max level is 300, right? SO logically, you should start maaaybe getting end-game content in the 200's, right? WRONG. You easily start getting green zombies regularly long before even level 100. At level 100 you only have enough skill points to have about 1/3 of the skills you need.

    Does this make sense to anyone else?

    We're not debating whether or not you "can" win with this setup (Obviously you can), but this does not change the fact there is an imbalance here. I should not be getting end-game zombies until I'm level 200+. Full stop IMO.
    I generally agree with this statement. This is gazz's area I'll have a speak with him about it. To me we get brown and orange crap way too long as well. I don't think it should be raining purples, but its pretty geared to give you low quality loot all the time.

  7. #82
    Inventor PoppaTot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedo View Post
    What I liked about Borderlands 2 was their enemy scaling. It moved in plateaus. At times, you would get your ass kicked, so you had to be more strategic. Eventually, though, you got to a point (whether through gear or abilities) when you were godlike even as you progressed to "harder" levels. At some point, though, the balance shifted back to where you had to be careful again. That game is still one of my favorite games to play with a team.
    Sal: Grog+DPUH+Sheriff's Badge+SHAM Shield put the right perks in and gunzerk for days = EZ MODE lol

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmole View Post
    I generally agree with this statement. This is gazz's area I'll have a speak with him about it. To me we get brown and orange crap way too long as well. I don't think it should be raining purples, but its pretty geared to give you low quality loot all the time.
    So, is Gazz in the hot seat?

    Jokes aside, I understand people's frustration because we have so many green zombies. I really don't mind that, but loot isn't rewarding enough to make me spend my precious ammo to clean an entire POI, so I always nerd pole to get the "roof loot" and that's it.

  9. #84
    Ranger jdifran's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm finding that the novelty of exploring a dungeon POI wears off quickly and if I come across the same one again, I'm just going to nerdpole or axe my way to the loot.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishjie View Post
    by catering to the minority who complains that the game is too ez (i'm guessing that would be you) it alienates pretty much everyone else. you can crank up to the hardest difficulty, leave the rest of us alone
    No, I am saying USE THE DIFFICULTY SETTING. If you feel there are too many rads, lower it and there will be less. If you want more challenge increase it. Complaining about the occurrence of rads is just dumb when there is a setting that will fix it to your preference.

    note i've pretty much adapted to the idiotic greens by avoiding POIs and levelling up via mining and collecting bird nests and getting stuff from traders - so the game is not any more challenging and no need to lower the difficulty, its just forcing me to avoid questing and POIs which presumably the developers worked hard on. LOL
    So the difficulty is making you avoid POIs and quests, but you don't feel the need to lower it. Mind blown.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirion View Post
    The max level is 300, right? SO logically, you should start maaaybe getting end-game content in the 200's, right? WRONG. You easily start getting green zombies regularly long before even level 100. At level 100 you only have enough skill points to have about 1/3 of the skills you need..
    Getting a few green zombies is hardly endgame. You may see a few rads at level 100 but that is nothing compared to what you will encounter at level 200.

  12. #87
    Leader Royal Deluxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    No, I am saying USE THE DIFFICULTY SETTING. If you feel there are too many rads, lower it and there will be less. If you want more challenge increase it. Complaining about the occurrence of rads is just dumb when there is a setting that will fix it to your preference.



    So the difficulty is making you avoid POIs and quests, but you don't feel the need to lower it. Mind blown.
    For me not the Difficulty, simply the fact that i need (if a have a hordebase i need to shoot)
    in a vanilla game (before i have a running setup of mines (Means Q6 auger and perks too))
    Arround a week to gather enough ammo for next hordebase and have enough ammo left to raid one poi per week.

    Well currently i solve that by a modded vendingmachine that sells me additional ammo. Money is no issue, last game i had 520 000 Coins on stock. but only 100 7.62 Bullets

  13. #88
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    Holy crap how many bullets do you fire?

    I am the miner for a group of 3, and 2 days solid mining per week is enough to make bullets for all of us (and 4 turrets) for horde night, and we still raid as many tier 5 quest POIs as we can in between.

    btw you are not digging actual mines are you? Surface boulder mining is far more productive.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    Holy crap how many bullets do you fire?

    I am the miner for a group of 3, and 2 days solid mining per week is enough to make bullets for all of us (and 4 turrets) for horde night, and we still raid as many tier 5 quest POIs as we can in between.

    btw you are not digging actual mines are you? Surface boulder mining is far more productive.
    That would be true in A16: 100 boulders would give you ~ 3.5k coal/nitrate/lead. In A17 you need almost 400 boulders to get same results. Underground mine is a better option.

  15. #90
    Leader Royal Deluxe's Avatar
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    Yep underground give better results.
    But it need some time until you have a few mines working.

    And how much ammo i use ... 500 7.62 per average poi i guess.
    Did i say that i have a 7,7,5,5,10 Skill Build with low amounts of skills in fighting ?
    (and i wear no heavy armor)

    You can guess 3 times what i prefer as Death is death player. Spend a few bullets more or start from scratch...

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