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Thread: The big crying thread for 17.2 Economy

  1. #106
    Fun Pimps Staff madmole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishjie View Post
    If they nerfed the trader, i really hoped they nerfed the green zombies showing up in a few days and infesting every POI. on my next playthrough i was going to skip intelligence because i can't afford not to put points into a tank meelee build to fight greens, but if i can't buy gear from trader, and i can't craft my own stuff, and most of the loot boxes have garbage even with 3 points in lucky looter......
    There was indeed a bug that was fixed causing radiated to spawn too heavily too soon.

  2. #107
    Fun Pimps Staff madmole's Avatar
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    I did some testing. I started at 9am, did the tutorial and bought 2 mother lode 1 str and the perk that does 20% more damage. I chopped wood and a bit of stone to maintain my stone axe. I made 125 coins by 3pm, so I could have doubled that by 10 at least. so 250 a day isn't great but thats using a horrible tool on day 1, as I level and get better harvest, gear etc it improves as it should. Its a zero risk job so it shouldn't pay well IMO. My typical play through I pick up every chair and scrap it so I have 1000's of spare wood to sell for a little supplement income. I'll chop wood at night to kill time too and again, sell what I don't use to keep my forges going.

  3. #108
    Leader Royal Deluxe's Avatar
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    i am now at 14000 Wood, results comes soon

  4. #109
    Fun Pimps Staff madmole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Deluxe View Post
    i am now at 14000 Wood, results comes soon
    You should make 1750 or so.

  5. #110
    Leader Royal Deluxe's Avatar
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    Allright i chopped 18 000 wood
    means 3 stacks, means the maximum a trader will buy for the next 3 days. (and my experience with the restock says on average a week)


    So lets see
    The setup, i started a new game and gave me (+xp for 12 level or so)
    a q3 Iron Axe with a Imod (and not the woodsplitter on purpose)
    50 Ravioli
    30 Water
    500 Iron Ingots
    5 First aid kits

    1 Point in strenght
    * 2 points in STrex
    * 2 in mother lode

    2 in Intelligence
    * 2 in Barter
    My intention was to simulate the first few days and something that is reasonable. And as we see your test show how hard it can be if the player has no dropluck.

    Time i needed
    11:25 of a 90 Minute day
    thats 17:10 Hours in a 60 minute day game

    I needed to kill 36 Zombies in self defense (took 4 times damage, 2x Wolfes, 2 Zombies that surprised me)
    The first 2-3 Ingamehours i killed Zombies with the Dev Pistol, after that i used my axe

    Used Food
    I started with 150 and final i had 86 and i eat 6 cans of ravioli = 64+6x7 = 106 Food
    Used water
    I started with 150 and final i had 120 and i drunk 7 water = 30+7x20 = 170 Water

    Result
    After selling the wood and buying pasta, water and iron ingots (which i sold the trader to be able to buy them) i used i had less than before, to be exact, i would need 7 more Pasta i had no money for.
    And i dont included the necessary heal.

    -------------------------------------------------------
    Sure its possible to say now
    * Buy in Vending machines is cheaper
    * Cook your own water
    * Eat the wolfes
    * ....

    But i think my point is understandable
    (and at the most affecting things this example took the more desireable, imagine the same test in desert on insane mode with only a stone axe and a 1+7 Horde x64 setting)

    (Btw it was a bit less than 1500 Coins i got for the 18 000 wood)
    Last edited by Royal Deluxe; 4 Days Ago at 09:30 PM.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Deluxe View Post
    Allright i chopped 18 000 wood
    means 3 stacks, means the maximum a trader will buy for the next 3 days. (and my experience with the restock says on average a week)


    So lets see
    The setup, i started a new game and gave me
    a q3 Iron Axe with a Imod (and not the woodsplitter on purpose)
    50 Ravioli
    30 Water
    500 Iron Ingots
    5 First aid kits

    1 Point in strenght
    * 2 points in STrex
    * 2 in mother lode

    2 in Intelligence
    * 2 in Barter
    My intention was to simulate the first few days and something that is reasonable. And as we see your test show how hard it can be if the player has no dropluck.

    Time i needed
    11:25 of a 90 Minute day
    thats 17:10 Hours in a 60 minute day game

    I needed to kill 36 Zombies in self defense (took 4 times damage, 2x Wolfes, 2 Zombies that surprised me)
    The first 2-3 Ingamehours i killed Zombies with the Dev Pistol, after that i used my axe

    Used Food
    I started with 150 and final i had 86 and i eat 6 cans of ravioli = 64+6x7 = 106 Food
    Used water
    I started with 150 and final i had 120 and i drunk 7 water = 30+7x20 = 170 Water

    Result
    After selling the wood and buying pasta, water and iron ingots (which i sold the trader to be able to buy them) i used i had less than before, to be exact, i would need 7 more Pasta i had no money for.
    And i dont included the necessary heal.

    -------------------------------------------------------
    Sure its possible to say now
    * Buy in Vending machines is cheaper
    * Cook your own water
    * Eat the wolfes
    * ....

    But i think my point is understandable

    After reading this impressive calculation, I will state my own opinion based on my experience with 17.2 in several points:

    1- With that axe, those results are just about right. About right too the balance, because IF something like wood gets more expensive, the balance goes to trash due to wood being everywhere.

    2- The cost/effectiveness of such an early task with that kind of weapon is not good. You CAN be a lumberjack, but you have to secure a place, a steel axe and some patience. One cannot simply try and go FULL ECONOMY and start selling, say, cans in Fallout and expect to survive.

    3- For a survival game and comparing 7dtd to others of the same genre I must say, survival and economy in "Empyrion" is tedious, "Ark" is like killing a level 1 pokemon over and over again to train your lvl 56 carterpie to lvl 60 (useless and tedious ). Don't let me start about "Subsistence"!. My point being, balance is enough and the bag of dukes starts getting pretty big pretty soon if you compensate with other elements like quests,loot, cars, etc.

    4.Players don't need the trader. Trader is an illusion up until solar energy comes along. If played with brains, even a bad start with bad luck results in some kind of food and water. I mean water is everywhere and food is huntable and pickable if you move a bit. From there is only up.

    5. Don't expect your game to be more late game by early game just because you consider it to be difficult or tedious. Personally I love the balance right now. Not perfect, but remember, npcs are not in (major economy balance), traders are full stacked dudes and not partially stacked protected destroyable places like it must be once they become mortal.

    6. Right now Im playing 25% loot, 25% exp, 7 day hordes (64 zs) and insane. Im neither stressed nor pissed in my game. No deaths. Never had a problem with economy. Things are tough, but every little thing you get is a wonder. You should try that.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Deluxe View Post
    Allright i chopped 18 000 wood
    means 3 stacks, means the maximum a trader will buy for the next 3 days. (and my experience with the restock says on average a week)


    So lets see
    The setup, i started a new game and gave me (+xp for 12 level or so)
    a q3 Iron Axe with a Imod (and not the woodsplitter on purpose)
    50 Ravioli
    30 Water
    500 Iron Ingots
    5 First aid kits

    1 Point in strenght
    * 2 points in STrex
    * 2 in mother lode

    2 in Intelligence
    * 2 in Barter
    My intention was to simulate the first few days and something that is reasonable. And as we see your test show how hard it can be if the player has no dropluck.

    Time i needed
    11:25 of a 90 Minute day
    thats 17:10 Hours in a 60 minute day game

    I needed to kill 36 Zombies in self defense (took 4 times damage, 2x Wolfes, 2 Zombies that surprised me)
    The first 2-3 Ingamehours i killed Zombies with the Dev Pistol, after that i used my axe

    Used Food
    I started with 150 and final i had 86 and i eat 6 cans of ravioli = 64+6x7 = 106 Food
    Used water
    I started with 150 and final i had 120 and i drunk 7 water = 30+7x20 = 170 Water

    Result
    After selling the wood and buying pasta, water and iron ingots (which i sold the trader to be able to buy them) i used i had less than before, to be exact, i would need 7 more Pasta i had no money for.
    And i dont included the necessary heal.

    -------------------------------------------------------
    Sure its possible to say now
    * Buy in Vending machines is cheaper
    * Cook your own water
    * Eat the wolfes
    * ....

    But i think my point is understandable
    (and at the most affecting things this example took the more desireable, imagine the same test in desert on insane mode with only a stone axe and a 1+7 Horde x64 setting)

    (Btw it was a bit less than 1500 Coins i got for the 18 000 wood)
    Madmole said you should get 1750 per 14000 wood or ~ 2250 per 18000 and you actually got 1500. Maybe a bug and we should get more money? I mean, considering your example and the guy who said 2100 per steel tool, "normal price" would be something like 3150. If that's the case I can live with, but I still think Barter perk should allow us to sell one more item per lvl.

  8. #113
    Leader Royal Deluxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_ahriman View Post
    ....I still think Barter perk should allow us to sell one more item per lvl.
    Depends what the RWG will have when finished.
    If we have fixed 5 traders on a 8x8 map we need definatly something. Specially if there are more players.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blake_ View Post
    6. Right now Im playing 25% loot, 25% exp, 7 day hordes (64 zs) and insane. Im neither stressed nor pissed in my game. No deaths. Never had a problem with economy. Things are tough, but every little thing you get is a wonder. You should try that.
    Lets start by this point.
    I completly understand how you play and why and how you like it. There are times i like such games too. But the Basic balance of the game is a other one. It must be a other one. I guarantie you that as as son as the current Economy goes stable there will be again a poostorm. Thats why i try to polish the edges and corners the current version have, so that more player can say .... I hate it, but ok, looks like i can play it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blake_ View Post
    The cost/effectiveness of such an early task with that kind of weapon is not good. You CAN be a lumberjack, but you have to secure a place, a steel axe and some patience.
    We spoke about a early game moneymaker.


    Well for the moment i work on a prefab, but after that i will make a modlet and try 3 small changes i see this moment as a good sollution for 1.5 problems

    * I will raise the money in trashbags (from currently average 5 to 50)
    * I will raise the money in registers from currently 40? to 150 or so
    * I will raise the chance of a dropped bag by zombies to arround 10%, but the same time i change the loot so that in 50% of the drops the player get "only" 100 Coins.

    This will help in the startgame on a perceivable level, and will affect the lategame not really
    Last edited by Royal Deluxe; 4 Days Ago at 10:21 PM.

  10. #115
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    I'm a little curious what effect this all had on aquiring solar panels and also the picnic table exploit.

  11. #116
    Leader Royal Deluxe's Avatar
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    Just as additional info to the test
    (same savegame)
    I sold again 18k wood from CM menue it was exactly 1485 Coins
    Buyed the 5 Iron Ingots i needed and had a rest of 1390 Coins

    And then i placed vending machines and buyed food for 106 Food points
    Result was that i had 862 Coins left

    (i reconsidered the test and thought that the Pasta cans are maybe a bit expensive, additional the spared money for the water and i guess thats what we can now name the optimum towards a good result that would be fair for the test.)

    Last edited by Royal Deluxe; 4 Days Ago at 10:51 PM.

  12. #117
    Fun Pimps Staff madmole's Avatar
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    I see pretty much any "job" in the apocalypse as a part time job you do to make a little extra money from surplus supplies so you can get some shiny thing you just don't quite have enough money for. Need 500 more dukes to buy that shiny mod? I can go cut wood for a few minutes and maybe afford it then. That kind of thing.

    I think a perk or book that lets you sell more of the same items to traders would be fine.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranzera View Post
    I'm a little curious what effect this all had on aquiring solar panels and also the picnic table exploit.
    I just saw this.... the problem is he buys a whole stack lol.. 115 isn't absurd but buying a whole stack for 57k is.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hek Harris View Post
    Simply lower the level of difficulty: this will reduce gamestage and you can play at your own pace.
    nope, already made a thread on this. i've always played default difficulty, but the rate at which greens show up is ridiculous. i shouldn't have to turn down the difficulty - the level scaling is broken. that is something that needs to be fixed, not hacky workaround fixes like lowering the difficulty.

    in that other thread, my latest post stated i am currently at a point now where i can take down TIER V quests (albeit slowly) as a level 130 with game stage 350+, but in order to get to that point, i had to stop questing for a long time, collect bird nests, craft and then sell stuff to traders, and hunt zombies in the wild, where there were no annoying greens, just easy to handle ferals. finally once i had gained enough levels (i had previously wasted all my points into int because i like to craft), and put points into combat perks, i was good to go. but not having a trader to rely on in 17.2 will mean i still need to waste points in INT, which means the gamestage will think i can take on green zombies (i cant), meaning progression will be even slower. ultimate lame.

    were people seriously whining about the trader? just don't use it if you don't like it

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmole View Post
    I just saw this.... the problem is he buys a whole stack lol.. 115 isn't absurd but buying a whole stack for 57k is.
    Hell, he'll buy 3 stacks if you've got them on hand. It sounds like a necessary nerf came down. A full stack went for over 200k dukes in 17.1

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