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Thread: Need help to get higher broader mountains and more rivers

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    Need help to get higher broader mountains and more rivers

    Hi

    I find the generating of maps to lack mountains, rivers and lakes. I it just me that is unlucky with random gen or have this been reduced/removed?
    Is there any tweaks/setting I can change to get higher, and more rivers and water, to make the world more similar to A16?

    Thanks for any help.
    Last edited by xxx73; 04-04-2019 at 06:23 AM.

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    Survivor Cpt Krunch's Avatar
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    I have some custom maps here shortly if I can stop working on prefabs. I use Magoli's Compo pack without using rwg to generate towns, well, that is to say, I tear out the rwg cities and 90-100% of the roads and redo them by hand.

    I use a lot of different methods to generate different maps now using modlet filters. What type and size map you looking for? I havent been able to generate those a16 Eden valleys of mountains and water, but i can come fairly close, plus i can move biomes and roads where i want. I can probably scrabble something good up for you in a week or two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt Krunch View Post
    I have some custom maps here shortly if I can stop working on prefabs. I use Magoli's Compo pack without using rwg to generate towns, well, that is to say, I tear out the rwg cities and 90-100% of the roads and redo them by hand.

    I use a lot of different methods to generate different maps now using modlet filters. What type and size map you looking for? I havent been able to generate those a16 Eden valleys of mountains and water, but i can come fairly close, plus i can move biomes and roads where i want. I can probably scrabble something good up for you in a week or two.
    Thats sound amazing. Im working on modifying a server for playing with friends, and that will take a few more weeks, so no rush.

    Im not sure if intended or a bug in current A17.2 rwgmixer.xml and biomes.xml, but almost all lakes and rivers seem to have been removed, and mountain chains and mountain height have been seriously reduced. All this makes the maps very little fun to explore. Also roads seem more messed up than in A16, and biomes is very large compared to A16, making some players "stuck" in a biome they don't like to stay.

    If I could chose whats most important I would say smaller biomes as in A16, rivers and larger higher mountains. I also like that the world end in wastland biomes as it did in earlier Alphas. About map size we have rented a server especially for size 16kx16k, so that is kind of essential.

    In the longer run I like to add more different biomes and more variations in ores to mine for, to create rare and unique recipes, and combination of materials.

    Would be awesome to see what you can do
    Last edited by xxx73; 04-13-2019 at 11:15 PM.

  4. #4
    Survivor Cpt Krunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post
    Im not sure if intended or a bug in current A17.2 rwgmixer.xml and biomes.xml, but almost all lakes and rivers seem to have been removed, and mountain chains and mountain height have been seriously reduced. All this makes the maps very little fun to explore.
    Using a few different sets of filter mods (sometimes in odd mix and match variations of different creators mods), Ive gotten some really nice mountains and rivers, lakes are good not great. Ive also got custom water and lake blocks i can add in wherever i want. Its a bit generic, but honestly its a big improvement on current map gens. Ive got decent 200x200x10 lakes i can drop where they look right, canals in cities. Im also working on an entire modular sewer and water tunnel system complete with boss Prefabs, traps, underground lakes etc. Few more weeks-month and those should be done.



    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post
    Also roads seem more messed up than in A16, and biomes is very large compared to A16, making some players "stuck" in a biome they don't like to stay.

    Roads and a lot of generated city sites are just choppy as hell now. I take a first look at where the rwg places everything, and check the sites and roadways, as well as biome placement. Once I decide roughly how many major cities I want and where, I set the biomes layout to sorta maximize the diversity between towns, cities, special areas etc. Its amazing how many less prefabs you use doing it this way. Less is more. The vehicle mods are so advanced now, the distance isnt so much an issue and it makes coming across special Prefabs really great. More distance between major sites, but what you will find in between will be quality and not quantity. Ive got a few highway and powerline sets ready to go as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post

    About map size we have rented a server especially for size 16kx16k, so that is kind of essential.
    Again, going to strongly advise against a map this size. Heh, that rhymed. I have not heard a single good thing using maps that size, esp on a dedicated server. I have a strong feeling you are going to have headaches. HOWEVER, I can make you a seriously awesome 16k map, as a few other people have asked for them at that size for single player. A map that size is going to be tougher to fill, but youll have a highway system to more or less act as a spine for the map, and I will space the special POIs through the wilderness areas on a sensible road system, it should be considerably better than any but the luckiest of rwg maps.

    I say it once more. Have a bad feeling on a map this size, so for the fist go, Im going to just lay down a few basic cities and focus on good overall map cohesion and not go to crazy on bridges and tunnels and too much details. Its still miles ahead of what rwg gives you by far.

    All the prefabs Im using are available here, and I may just bundle them all together. The only mod you will need for my maps are the HDHQ biomes pack, there are a few options depending on your server, but even the lowest res biomes are massively better and improve performance, plus it makes the maps look very very beautiful. Anything else you want to add is up to you, feel free to use the maps how you like.

    I will get started and let you know when im close to done. This should be fun, 16k will be an adventure...

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    wow again, what you are doing seem amazing. I cant wait to see what you can come up with.

    About 16k x 16k maps, we rent a server that cost 50 usd a month and is made for this size, and we have pretty decent computers. So far we have 3 players on this server with this map size for a month now without any issues at all. Its very smooth and ping is great. We have one guy that love to mine and he create big cave-in from time to time, in Al6 the game sometimes froze for minutes, In A17 no freezing noticed so far.

    About cities/villages, I prefer them not be too large but to have one or more of the more attractive buildings (weapons/tools/medicine) in each city/village. Its nice with a few big cities spread out. Also we like that cities/villages is more rare with some distance between them, so players have to explore to find them.

    Pois is nice to have plenty of, but also stretches of empty wilderness is cool.

    About prefabs, I have used Magoli's Compo pack, many prefabs is great, but I find also many of the prefabs to look to much like Lego or Minecraft. Do you have any plans of identify and remove those prefabs? I can help you with this if you have not done already.

    Caves, tunnels and bridges is awesome, that's one of the things I really miss from navezgane, but we never play since map is so small.

    A little outside your scope maybe, but do you have any thoughts or plans on making more different biomes, or adding more different and rare ores/minerals to mine? I have not started on this yet, but I hope I can do something with this in the near future. One idea here is to create some smaller biomes with radiation and need for hazmat gear to enter, with rare metals can be found for the brave.

    Thanks a lot for doing this, to have a great map to play make all the difference in the world.

  6. #6
    Survivor Cpt Krunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post

    About cities/villages, I prefer them not be too large but to have one or more of the more attractive buildings (weapons/tools/medicine) in each city/village. Its nice with a few big cities spread out. Also we like that cities/villages is more rare with some distance between them, so players have to explore to find them.

    Pois is nice to have plenty of, but also stretches of empty wilderness is cool.
    |

    We are in perfect agreement here. Ive already picked a map from about a dozen I generated overnight. It is by no means an A16 grand canyon style, but there is a lot of landlocked rivers and river segments, some cool small islands and lakes, as well a lot of mountains, though they are not chained mountain but more crop up in certain areas. Im overall happy so far. Next I tweak biomes and fix or replace roadways. Im going with at least one highway system, either sunken or raised or maybe both, like I said I want to get this map out soon-ish, so im going to try not to go overboard with the prefab roadways for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post

    About prefabs, I have used Magoli's Compo pack, many prefabs is great, but I find also many of the prefabs to look to much like Lego or Minecraft. Do you have any plans of identify and remove those prefabs? I can help you with this if you have not done already.
    |

    Again, we are in agreement here. My major issue with rwg is the repetition of bad buildings, or simply just things that make no sense together at all. One great thing about Magolis pack, is that when grouped together properly, even the bad buildings are not so bad. This is because I pair and place them into places they fit and only if I think they add something good by being there. Even good buildings lose their effect if theres 50 of them in stupid places.

    I do try and use what I can where it fits best, but yeah, I tend to leave about 1/4 out completely, and probably 1/2 of the vanilla as well. With so many themed buildings, I will be doing these themed cities/areas, dont want to give it away, but there should be enough here with Compo and a handful of others Ive collected and will bundle up for you guys. If you like wilderness spaces and interesting stand alone POIs, please be sure to use the biome mods from HDHQ, you can tweak the tree levels perfectly and it makes traveling through the woods at night in a vehicle very hard and foot travel scary as hell, even for experienced players.



    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post

    A little outside your scope maybe, but do you have any thoughts or plans on making more different biomes, or adding more different and rare ores/minerals to mine? I have not started on this yet, but I hope I can do something with this in the near future. One idea here is to create some smaller biomes with radiation and need for hazmat gear to enter, with rare metals can be found for the brave.
    |

    This is outside of my scope, but I am working on a map for a cool overhaul by a guy named Rucky, hes on here and Discord. He could send you in the right direction for sure. I do remember liking the swamp and prarie biomes from the Starvation mod, but yeah, not really my area.

    You are very welcome for help. I have the free time at the moment and a lot of people have been looking for custom maps, so hopefully these will work out for you all. Feel free to add or remove whatever you like once I post it. I will have a biome and road map later tonight, I will send you a jpeg later. Cheers

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    Again wow, and thank for quick reply.
    For now I let you work your magic.

    About HDHQ, I just tested it since you mentioned it. Some things is really awesome there, but the biomes modlet was very repetitive. It looked the same in the same biomes everywhere i went: In default game the same biomes have more variety, with more open. less dense, and more dense areas, here was everything very dense. Even cities had same density as wild landscape. I like landscape have less visibility, but not everywhere. Is it possible to adjust so i can combine more open parts, partly dense and really dense in same biomes?

    Also a few other things. All A17 trees that is more lush and have branches down to the ground is completely missing. This trees made the forest look dense with much less trees, and they look much better than the A16 trees. So I wonder if the modlets is only A16?

    Another missing feature I like, is that the density of trees is reduced the higher the landscape is, I did not see anything like this in HDHQ.

  8. #8
    Survivor Cpt Krunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post
    Again wow, and thank for quick reply.
    For now I let you work your magic.

    About HDHQ, I just tested it since you mentioned it. Some things is really awesome there, but the biomes modlet was very repetitive. It looked the same in the same biomes everywhere i went: In default game the same biomes have more variety, with more open. less dense, and more dense areas, here was everything very dense. Even cities had same density as wild landscape. I like landscape have less visibility, but not everywhere. Is it possible to adjust so i can combine more open parts, partly dense and really dense in same biomes?

    Also a few other things. All A17 trees that is more lush and have branches down to the ground is completely missing. This trees made the forest look dense with much less trees, and they look much better than the A16 trees. So I wonder if the modlets is only A16?

    Another missing feature I like, is that the density of trees is reduced the higher the landscape is, I did not see anything like this in HDHQ.
    Yes, the mod sorta wipes the biome's trees and adds them back in as prefabs more or less. You can change the density, but honestly, even at full density, it still draws less triangles (ie RAM) and changes the experience quite a lot. But yes, if you are loving the vanilla trees, its a lot different. I do miss the days when there were two forest biomes. A wetland/swamp and an open plains would both be nice in addition to these biomes...

    So here is the config file, theres one for each biome, this is snow. The first group is whats being removed. Removing the ones you want back in the game from that list might do it, but might cause problems, I would start there if you want both. The 2nd group is the added trees. You can see here I have them set to 0, this is because I am currently editing map and need to see ground to tweak biomes and place roads etc.I load in another set when i want to see it how it will be in game.

    <configs>
    <!-- Snow Decorations -->
    <remove xpath="/worldgeneration/biomes/biome[@name='snow']/decorations/decoration[@blockname='treeWinterEverGreen']"/>
    <remove xpath="/worldgeneration/biomes/biome[@name='snow']/decorations/decoration[@blockname='treeWinterPine13m']"/>
    <remove xpath="/worldgeneration/biomes/biome[@name='snow']/decorations/decoration[@blockname='treeWinterPine19m']"/>
    <remove xpath="/worldgeneration/biomes/biome[@name='snow']/decorations/decoration[@blockname='treeWinterPine28m']"/>

    <append xpath="/worldgeneration/biomes/biome[@name='snow']/decorations">
    <decoration type="block" blockname="HDHQ_AlpineWinter1Prefab" prob ="0.0" rotatemax="3"/>
    <decoration type="block" blockname="HDHQ_AlpineWinter2Prefab" prob ="0.0" rotatemax="3"/>
    <decoration type="block" blockname="HDHQ_AlpineWinterMed1Prefab" prob ="0.000" rotatemax="3"/>
    <decoration type="block" blockname="HDHQ_AlpineWinterSm1Prefab" prob ="0.000" rotatemax="3"/>
    <decoration type="block" blockname="HDHQ_AlpineDead1Prefab" prob ="0.000" rotatemax="3"/>
    <decoration type="block" blockname="HDHQ_AlpineDead2Prefab" prob ="0.000" rotatemax="3"/>
    </append>
    </configs>


    Best thing with these biome mods is you can tweak or remove cleanly in a single restart, nice and easy. Im definitely designing this for use use with hdhq due to the vast space, but feel free to use or not. It will def feel more empty at 16k, but that was already the case w rwg. Your choice.

    Heres the rough map. It will look a lot different biome wise when im done, but the mountains and river are really good. I threw out the last map after running this one at the last second after reading your first post again. The maps were just too flat and will make a map this size dull. This map with the denser mountain groups and biome special effects will look incredible.

    https://workupload.com/file/Wr5PBPaf
    Last edited by Cpt Krunch; 04-15-2019 at 05:19 AM.

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    The rivers look amazing.

    Thanks for pointing out the settings, I will experiment to see if can get more varied terrain in same biomes. Its cool with very dense forests, but not all the time.

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    Survivor Cpt Krunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post
    The rivers look amazing.

    Thanks for pointing out the settings, I will experiment to see if can get more varied terrain in same biomes. Its cool with very dense forests, but not all the time.
    I agree, I usually by default turn the trees down a bit, and I may even play with a little vanilla mixed in for for variation. There are a few other tricks I use to thin trees and vary terrain as well. Peppering in gravel into forest, forest into desert, burnt into wasteland, you can cut down over tree number and create some really nice transition areas. I also lay down large areas of gravel and asphalt and carve my towns and cities out of those. Gravel and natural barriers such as water and mountains/hills do a good job of backing the forest away.

    This map is absolutely beautiful. I could spend weeks and weeks tweaking it perfectly, but I still have some reservations about sinking 100+ hours into a map that wont work lol.

    We may want to do an early test drive with the map on your server once im finished with biomes and roads. I will send you the mod to turn off trees as well. I just want to make sure it loads and you can do a quick teleport tour through the map to make sure it load right.

    I had an 8k map I spent weeks on die on me in 17.1 and while I learned a lot building it, I was pretty bummed out when it wouldn't run for reasons I could not fix, the height map was bugged from me messing around too much without knowing the limitations. Lessons learned, but we really should test.

    Biomes and roads should take me a week for the whole map, its really the longest part. I said I wouldn't do custom blocks or bridges for this map, but I might anyway because its a beautiful map, I will just do them quickly. If you all love the map, I might be able to get a better polished one out before version change.

    This map is remote POI heaven. Desert, Forest and Snow boundaries are done. Still working out how to slice this giant ham up lol. I think I will divide the map into quarters and do one at a time. Ive scoped probably 30+ large city sites, but Im going to try and limit it to 2 very large and 2 medium size high-population areas tied into their own quadrant road systems, and then all joined together by road or prefab highway.



    xxx73, are you on Discord?

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    Im really looking forward to testing this map. It already sounds so much better than vanilla maps.

    About your work here, you should really start your own thread about map making and progress you have done here. This thread was created by me about rivers and mountains, and im afraid that many people will not see what you're doing, and I think what you doing is interesting for many players.

    Do you have any thoughts about the map borders? I like the old deadly wasteland borders that was visible to players. We don't really like random deaths, so we dislike the new "borders out of nowhere" system in A17. Not sure if they remove that deadly biome completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post
    Im really looking forward to testing this map. It already sounds so much better than vanilla maps.

    About your work here, you should really start your own thread about map making and progress you have done here. This thread was created by me about rivers and mountains, and im afraid that many people will not see what you're doing, and I think what you doing is interesting for many players.
    Ive considered it, but most of my methods are cobbled, things are apt to change frequently and results are never 100% guaranteed. Its still very much trial and error in many regards. Roads and prefabs are straight forward, but biomes I can only do with templates someone else made, and those can be very temperamental. That said, if this map works well for you guys without issues, I will def do an overview video or two.



    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post
    Do you have any thoughts about the map borders? I like the old deadly wasteland borders that was visible to players. We don't really like random deaths, so we dislike the new "borders out of nowhere" system in A17. Not sure if they remove that deadly biome completely.
    Hadnt really considered the changes to borders till you mentioned it. Random deaths?

    Ive thrown up map edge walls on 4k maps in order to utilize the corners better, but I think it would be too much for larger maps.

    I do remember the old radiation border, and I also still like the idea of a playable radiation zones like Starvation had. Ive been really reluctant to get into modified biomes, the less extras players need to install the better, but honestly, all this biome talk has me wanting a few of the old a16 altered biomes back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt Krunch View Post
    Ive considered it, but most of my methods are cobbled, things are apt to change frequently and results are never 100% guaranteed. Its still very much trial and error in many regards. Roads and prefabs are straight forward, but biomes I can only do with templates someone else made, and those can be very temperamental. That said, if this map works well for you guys without issues, I will def do an overview video or two.
    That would be great


    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt Krunch View Post
    Hadnt really considered the changes to borders till you mentioned it. Random deaths?

    Ive thrown up map edge walls on 4k maps in order to utilize the corners better, but I think it would be too much for larger maps.

    I do remember the old radiation border, and I also still like the idea of a playable radiation zones like Starvation had. Ive been really reluctant to get into modified biomes, the less extras players need to install the better, but honestly, all this biome talk has me wanting a few of the old a16 altered biomes back.
    The more of the map that is useable the better. I liked the visible wasteland borders in earlier versions, it was a warning to be careful. Now the borders can be anywhere.

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    Survivor Cpt Krunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx73 View Post



    The more of the map that is useable the better. I liked the visible wasteland borders in earlier versions, it was a warning to be careful. Now the borders can be anywhere.
    Yes, now I understand.You know, I think I can probably draw that in by hand. Hadnt considered trying that for the fact that the terrain tends to elevate and players out on the edges of the map are aware. Let me try a simple wasteleand or asphalt border. There is a black and red overlay png for the rad border, i can try and use that to stencil in the border

    As far as the map work goes, I have good progress to report. I said I wouldnt, but Im modifying Guppy's raised highway set, im 80% complete for this version. This map will *hopefully* feature a complete raised interstate highway system throughout the entire 16k map. It will include on ramps, tunnels, bridges, 2 and 4 way highway intersections, etc. I will give you one screenshot for a teaser.

    https://workupload.com/file/qC8EyVXg

    I could spend weeks just working on these, but for now, i built just enough pieces to make it suitable for our needs, and some of it is still function over form. The 4 way intersection in particular might turn into something better, but for now, the only way to connect 8 lanes without spending hours building diagonal ramps, i used a traffic circle, which worked out pretty awesome i think. I might do a few minor variations of the circle, but I do want to stay focused on map.

    You did convince me to do some videos though, and Im setting up pc to do a video on this road build.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt Krunch View Post
    Yes, now I understand.You know, I think I can probably draw that in by hand. Hadnt considered trying that for the fact that the terrain tends to elevate and players out on the edges of the map are aware. Let me try a simple wasteleand or asphalt border. There is a black and red overlay png for the rad border, i can try and use that to stencil in the border
    That sounds great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt Krunch View Post
    As far as the map work goes, I have good progress to report. I said I wouldnt, but Im modifying Guppy's raised highway set, im 80% complete for this version. This map will *hopefully* feature a complete raised interstate highway system throughout the entire 16k map. It will include on ramps, tunnels, bridges, 2 and 4 way highway intersections, etc. I will give you one screenshot for a teaser.

    https://workupload.com/file/qC8EyVXg
    I had never even imagined such a system in this game, going to be interesting to check it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt Krunch View Post
    You did convince me to do some videos though, and Im setting up pc to do a video on this road build.
    Im looking forward to that. Some videos on rivers and mountains is also be welcomed

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