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Thread: LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

  1. #271
    Community Moderator SylenThunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXBadDreamXx View Post
    my only problem with the perk system is that i feel forced to seek out zombies so that i can level to do basic tasks when id rather be harvesting and looting for materials to make a base and protect myself...its immersion breaking. plus the zombies suck and need to be completely redone. having the zombies the main focus of everything just puts how really terrible they are right in the limelight. at least before you did some mining then some looting then some tree cutting then killed some zombies. now its , cut a tree oh heres 6 zombies...loot some house heres 50 zombies...do some mining attracted 4 screamers and 80 zombies...ffs
    You'll get more exp harvesting than you will killing zeds. This has been the case since at least 17.2.

  2. #272
    Hunter Cernwn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Madmole has requested a few times now for LBD discussion to cease in the A18 dev thread. I will now be enforcing those requests. All LBD discussion should happen here.
    While I don't mind the new xp system and am having a BLAST with a heavily modded A17.3b18, I do believe the LBD system could have been superior, with a couple caveats:

    1. Active vs Passive - "activated" (meaning you have to press a button or click a menu to use) skills could be 100% LBD, but "passive" (always on, such as armor related) perks could be be bought with xp or learnable by RARE training manual (trader quests or treasure chests) rewards. The new book sets Madmole has already designed for A18 would be PERFECT for the latter. Active (LBD) skills could be in the 1-100 range (percentile like Everquest), while passive (bought/taught) perks remained in the 1-5 ranks range.

    2. Maximum LBD skill increases gated - by either level (say 5 per level, like the older Elder Scrolls games), by days gone by/survived or by gamestage (my favorite, since it is days survived+level). If you died and respawned, it would be a while before you advanced the gamestage enough to gain additional skill points, beyond those you currently possess. Not only would this address min-maxing exploitation, and people rushing to maximize everything too quickly (thus skipping content), but it would be a far more effective deterrent than the widely disliked death debuff.

    Anywho, these are just a couple ideas for a more hybridized system that might be a compromise for TFP. I am also a supporter of skill-based systems like SWG vs most modern level-based systems, but that is a whole nother can o' worms best saved for another post. Sláinte!

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by SylenThunder View Post
    You'll get more exp harvesting than you will killing zeds. This has been the case since at least 17.2.
    What's more effective changes as the game progresses. In the beginning it is definitely more effective to kill zombies instead of hitting rocks with a stone axe. In the late game even looting a bird's nest give more XP than killing a zombie.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poojam View Post
    I'm convinced they don't actually play the game. They definitely don't play it like a lot of the playerbase plays it (persistent, long term survival worlds with communal PVE and/or PVP experience).

    There's a couple of them working to get the code to be as efficient as possible. But the ones that seem to be driving the boat creatively/gameplay experience-wise are simply dabbling with the mundane in the game as their day job. They play other games.
    That would actually make sense. Imagine adding a bicycle to your game that slows down when riding it uphill but doesn't accelerate when riding it downhill, and not immediately fixing that. It would drive me insane.

  5. #275
    Arch Necromancer Morloc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davy Crockett View Post
    Imagine adding a bicycle to your game that slows down when riding it uphill but doesn't accelerate when riding it downhill, and not immediately fixing that. It would drive me insane.
    Never go to the gym...


    -Morloc

  6. #276
    Community Moderator SylenThunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipClaw View Post
    What's more effective changes as the game progresses. In the beginning it is definitely more effective to kill zombies instead of hitting rocks with a stone axe. In the late game even looting a bird's nest give more XP than killing a zombie.
    Once you've put a point into sexual tyrannosaurus, and have looted an iron pick, you get more exp from hitting rocks. This is easily done by day 2. By day 3 you're leveling twice as fast with mining than you are finding zeds to kill.

    In my most recent gameplay with a friend, by day 4 I was level 28 and they were only 16. All I did was work on building our base, and they were exploring town and killing zeds.
    The only holdback was stamina, food, and water. The latter two are easy to get, and the first is managed by just applying a couple of skillpoints in the first few levels. After that, it was cake.

  7. #277
    Inventor AtomicUs5000's Avatar
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    The amount of XP you get for doing different things will change depending on what you placed your points in and when.

    Early game, mid game, late game... doesn’t matter. If at any point you can gain more XP doing a specific task, things are unbalanced under this system. It is likely to be harder to balance as this system becomes more involved in A18.

    I mention this because of the recent posts in this thread and also because “hard to balance” was once used as a reason to change the system in the first place.

    I think eventually I will grow to appreciate the new system, especially once A18 arrives, but I expect crazy imbalance coming with it. However, there could be enough randomness with books to cause a kind of imbalance that is more based on chance, resulting in a near-impossible situation to balance, to the point people won’t even care anymore.

  8. #278
    Colony Founder RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicUs5000 View Post
    but I expect crazy imbalance coming with it. However, there could be enough randomness with books to cause a kind of imbalance that is more based on chance, resulting in a near-impossible situation to balance, to the point people won’t even care anymore.
    I definitely don't expect this system or xp sources to be balanced especially after seeing various dev comments about it. As I see it, the only way it can be balanced is if they strictly balance them according to the max xp/time one can get from an activity only (which is hard to measure for e.g. zombie killing), no other factors included. I also think books will throw off item economy/perks to an extend and will create more problems than the benefits they will bring by being chase items.

    I don't think much consideration is being put into "these kinds of stuff" and don't think they are trying to avoid a "game-y" approach (the new kamikaze zombie is an indication they aren't). Also hopefully they will see future complaints for what they really are, because these things do make a difference. That's just the pessimistic me though, hope they prove me wrong.
    Last edited by RestInPieces; 05-20-2019 at 07:21 PM.

  9. #279
    Tracker OldManBrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poojam View Post
    I'm convinced they don't actually play the game. They definitely don't play it like a lot of the playerbase plays it (persistent, long term survival worlds with communal PVE and/or PVP experience).

    There's a couple of them working to get the code to be as efficient as possible. But the ones that seem to be driving the boat creatively/gameplay experience-wise are simply dabbling with the mundane in the game as their day job. They play other games.
    I think this is accurate, but generally common in the gaming industry. (And software development in general.)

    Makes sense too, from a development standpoint it's probably hard to maintain a long-term survival world with constant code changes going in. Add to that just the fact that testing requires multiple gameplay runs over and over, it kind of sucks the fun out of the game and makes it difficult for a developer to see the "fun" in what they're doing.

    Hence the changes in development direction and narrowing focus over time with many of these major updates:

    • Dramatically smaller maps
    • Streamlining
    • Stripping of features that the devs seemingly got bored with or add difficulty to balancing (LBD, random loot schematics, etc)


    They all make it easier to balance and quicker to test, as well as making the gameplay loops "faster" to keep things fresh for them. Problem is a lot of us (I like to think the majority) liked the wide open spaces, pacing, and unpredictability of the randomly looted schematics.

  10. #280
    Inventor AtomicUs5000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldManBrian View Post
    I think this is accurate, but generally common in the gaming industry. (And software development in general.)

    Makes sense too, from a development standpoint it's probably hard to maintain a long-term survival world with constant code changes going in. Add to that just the fact that testing requires multiple gameplay runs over and over, it kind of sucks the fun out of the game and makes it difficult for a developer to see the "fun" in what they're doing.

    Hence the changes in development direction and narrowing focus over time with many of these major updates:

    • Dramatically smaller maps
    • Streamlining
    • Stripping of features that the devs seemingly got bored with or add difficulty to balancing (LBD, random loot schematics, etc)


    They all make it easier to balance and quicker to test, as well as making the gameplay loops "faster" to keep things fresh for them. Problem is a lot of us (I like to think the majority) liked the wide open spaces, pacing, and unpredictability of the randomly looted schematics.
    It's a good theory, but...
    Quote Originally Posted by madmole View Post
    There are at least 11 new weapons shipping with Alpha 18, and probably more. Over 140 schematics to find and unlock. Over 100 books..
    Try testing and balancing that in less time.

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by SylenThunder View Post
    Once you've put a point into sexual tyrannosaurus, and have looted an iron pick, you get more exp from hitting rocks. This is easily done by day 2. By day 3 you're leveling twice as fast with mining than you are finding zeds to kill.

    In my most recent gameplay with a friend, by day 4 I was level 28 and they were only 16. All I did was work on building our base, and they were exploring town and killing zeds.
    The only holdback was stamina, food, and water. The latter two are easy to get, and the first is managed by just applying a couple of skillpoints in the first few levels. After that, it was cake.
    I notice the same in my playthroughs. BUT what minmaxers (I use the term as description, not as an accusation) are doing is shooting in the air around a few pois and mass-slaughtering the zombies coming out of the pois. I never tried this, but I find it believable that you could be leveling faster this way than mining for at least the first week. One way to balance this might be to transfer zombie xp to box-opening/scavening xp (because then you only get the full xp package if you fully loot the POIs you are emptying with the mass murder). Or even diminishing returns if you kill zombies in fast succession ( a change specifically for minmax prevention, a last resort fix if nothing else helps)

    (Or simply ignore that there are minmaxers out there )

  12. #282
    Arch Necromancer Morloc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meganoth View Post
    (Or simply ignore that there are minmaxers out there )



    But that's what they WANT you to do!!!



    -Morloc

  13. #283
    Colony Founder RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meganoth View Post
    I notice the same in my playthroughs. BUT what minmaxers (I use the term as description, not as an accusation) are doing is shooting in the air around a few pois and mass-slaughtering the zombies coming out of the pois. I never tried this, but I find it believable that you could be leveling faster this way than mining for at least the first week.
    True, you are right, even more than just one week - until you get steel tools & 5/5 perks, zombie killing can be more efficient. And people mostly just do everything they can to attract zombies to their base, rather than explore.

    Thing is it's not only min-maxers that do that. Min-maxing usually means "optimizing something to perfection", but what we have here are strong incentives and easy ways for players to do these things - it's like saying that "when playing WoW/most other mmorpgs, doing quests instead of grinding mobs is min-maxing". It is not - it's an obvious easy way and it's natural for most players to behave that way (and for some to ruin their experience in the process).

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  15. #285
    Colony Founder Kubikus's Avatar
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    If you actually wanted to balance the xp-gain, your best bet would be to just reward time played instead of paying different activities differently. Earn a steady amount of xp as long as you do anything. How and why would mining be worth more xp than killing zombies or the other way around? And if I summon screamers that summon zombies all day or if I stand in front of a stone wall with my auger all day, how is that more valuable or meaningful or productive than exploring the map or placing hundreds of blocks, building a giant castle? Two activities that are not rewarded with xp at all. I mean, of course I can make up arguments for any possible standpoint, skill, risk, resources earned, structures built, square blocks explored - but it is merely a matter of opinion, so every intelligent person has to accept it as an undenieable fact that all activities are of equal worth.

    And - btw - any opinion, that declares one activity more valuable than another, contradicts the most powerful argument for a perk system, which is "freedom".

    Speaking of that powerful argument, allow me to weaken it. Also free I am to grab whatever I desire from the creative menu and use the console to supply myself with all the xp necessary to buy every perk. The game, if we'd argue that these are not the rules, could just be designed to allow that or something alike, such as pois all over the map that have an endless supply of every block and item, and instead of a perk system, the player spawns already blessed with all available abilities. So in other words, the freedom that we have if we decide to use what's currently understood as cheating, could simply be created as a regular game mechanic.

    But we don't want that. And why do we not want that? Because we want to have a progression. And why do we want to have a progression? Because it feels good to gradually acquire better equipment and abilities. It really is merely a biochemical principle: The game provides us with a constant stream of small rewards that make us a little happy all the time. It's how the brain works, look it up if you're interested, here's a starting point.

    I, and with me it seems a significant number of players, prefer to "work" towards specific goals with specific activities, because I find it rather unsatisfying when I can just stand in front of a stone wall with an auger for a day, level up 10 times and buy ten ranged weapons related perks. Without ever having even fired a gun. It does - sorta kinda - feel like cheating. Just like it does feel like cheating when I kill 100 zombies and unlock recipes for workstations and power tools. How does one lead to the other? Not through logic, but merely by the developers' declaration that it's ok. It feels like cheating - while I know it certainly isn't - because of the disconnect between activity and reward.

    There is no real equivalent in real life, but looking for one, this came to mind: It is (usually) much more satisfying to build something yourself, like, say, furniture or a pc or whatever art than to just pick a finished product off of a shelve. One (usually) feels better about oneself if one created a thing oneself, because of the closer connection of one with the thing. One, then, has a history with the thing, one has, so to speak, become one with the thing. A part of it, one's time is in the thing, one's passion. Heart and soul? Very possible. It's that feeling of pride and accomplishment, that is a prominent factor that makes games fun to play.


    Another pro-lbd argument that I have not really seen being layed out: When lbd was a thing, I used to start with leveling up the pistol and the club. Which sounds more like a strategy than it is - you would simply find the pistol and the club (and ammo for the pistol) earlier than other weapons, and use them, thus automatically and naturally leveling the skills. In the later game, however, working on another skill that I had not yet leveled, often the hunting rifle and the machete, was "something to do" and indeed a concrete plan and conscious decision. I did not need the rifle or the machete, the pistol and the club were doing every necessary job just fine, but improving with other weapons was another goal, that would "force" me into a a) certain different "playstyle" (using that other weapon) and b) position of "weakness", because the damage dealt was still low in comparison. And of course it would function as an untapped source of rewards, adding more funsies to the game.

    I still can work towards goals today, sure, but I can just power towards them with the same old same old that I had maxed out asap within the first week of playing. And if you really want to reach a certain goal, you are highly inclined to use the fastest available method.

    Now, of course in such cases, we hear the "but you can" or "just roleplay it"-argument. It's not the same, because during your roleplaying, you are fully aware that you are being inefficient, that a method is freely available, legal and not cheating, that would take you to your goal much faster and/or more convenient.

    And efficiency and convenience are yet again two qualities our brains like a lot. Which leads me back to what I said in post #259 in this thread.

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