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Thread: LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grue View Post
    There is a difference between difficulty and challenging.

    Zombies used to be erratic like.... well... zombies.
    A mindless horde that used large numbers to overwhelm defenses.
    You build fortifications and then defend them from the mindless horde = FUN!

    Now they are too smart for their own good.

    There is no reason to build walls because they would simply shred any wall you put in front of them, so now we build mazes instead of walls, or just kite them.
    Instead of an epic siege to test your base design.... we have Monkeys vs Bloons.
    While that maybe entertaining in the short run, it gets old. Fast.

    Combine that with the new XP grind system and the game has lost much of its appeal.
    Horde night is just a conga line of XP being delivered to my front door like pizza
    No fun, no challenge, just a mindless shooting gallery.

    Seriously, I never really noticed or cared about what "level" my character was in A16 and I LOVED it that way.
    My progress was based on actually playing the game... exploring... finding the books I needed... finding the resources I needed...
    trying to get something built before the end of the week.
    It was not perfect, but it was a highly enjoyable sandbox experience.

    Learn by doing was FAR superior, it was interesting, it made SENSE.

    If I wanted to get better and mining to buy the next perk, I had to go do some mining.
    Now I can max out my mining skills without ever digging a hole.
    If I wanted to get better with a shotgun, I actually had to USE a shotgun.
    Now I can max out my shotgun skills without even owning a shotgun.

    It was far more entertaining/immersive/fun in A16.4, I could play for hundreds of hours on the same map, exploring and building... there was always something to do, some defenses that needed improvement, books to find, a better engine/batter/whatever for the minibike, a real reason to explore.

    Between the AI changes (minimal base building) and the perk/progression (grind XP)
    changes, what is the point of the game now?

    Since A17 I find myself constantly starting new maps instead of spending hundreds of hours on building bases with my friends because the game play is stale, generic, predictable, i.e., boring as ♥♥♥♥.

    As much as I like all the new vehicles and content... I would rather just have my little minibike and a fun sandboxy game to play, than a linear, boring, wannabe RPG that is stuck so hard to the rails that every single play through is completely identical. A17 has ZERO replay value.



    I have to agree with just about everything you said. Most of the bases on our server are just for decoration, and we just all ignore the horde since now every zombie is a bullet sponge. Just ignore the horde, run around, smash some rocks, cut some trees. Since they removed zombie loot and harvesting trash bags and the gore piles along the road give us bones. So we can at least fix one of their mistakes.
    The level thing is ridiculous. We all know at least two or three different ways to totally cheat the system and hit whatever level we want. I'm fond of going to the trader at level one and hitting max level while filling up a dozen chests with Duke's. I mean, that's a catch up strategy or a way to confound newer players, not a great way to play the game.
    Oh boy, learning by doing....you see, what you have to remember here is that Madmole does not play the game. He has admitted this in his streams. He doesn't know much of anything about the game, when he was showcasing 17 when it was under the hood he stated he hadn't played in a year. He didn't know the placement of the rock formations aboveground so he suggested, on his stream, that he increase the number. He got pilloried for that one as he admitted that he is out of touch with the player base.
    So even though players may prefer a thing, he has an ideal in his head that he wants, and screw the people that pay his bills. And he hates learning by doing, although it wouldn't matter as he doesn't even play.
    And as far as your last point, the vehicles, I'm kind of lukewarm. The new bicycle is cute, but it isn't practical. The motorcycle is fun, but really no better than a minibike. The jeep can carry your buddy so he can go afk while he rides, but you can't do anything while riding shotgun so nobody cares. The gyrocopter is far too slow and uses far too much fuel. For absolutely no reason.

    Yeah, aside from ruining zombie ai, making everyone focus on their level instead of the game, adding in repetitive vehicles that may as well just be reskins, and killing learning by doing....I suppose seventeen was just a test to see if anyone will stick around.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SnowDog1942 View Post
    Im A16 I could level up mining without ever digging a hole or using any mining tool...just sayin. Level up, put points in mining and miner 69er... wasnt that hard.

    In A16, the miner 69er skill was the source of 99.9 percent of mining improvement if the improvement and u got that point to spend by doing whatever
    Yes, you could have done that. Nobody did that, but you could.
    You could also just set your skill levels via the console. And everybody did that.
    But sure, you have a thing to say that really makes no sense.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmole View Post
    It severely limits player choice. Do anything fun get xp, buy what you want with that xp, not be locked into repetitive grindy actions that force you to do stupid things like get stabbed to improve your armor ability.
    I really hope that one day you find something serious to complain about, because I'm sure what you're doing to that horse is illegal at least in half of the United States.
    Seriously, we get it. You don't like the game that you sold to people. Congratulations, you made that point. But standing on a cactus or in a campfire to cheese your armor skill up is only something going on inside your head. Sure, maybe a couple of people will do that, but most people won't. And constantly using this same strawman is even more irritating than you sitting there with your clickety clackety keyboard playing a game you admitted to having not played for over a year (which is telling) and complaining about all of the parts of the game that your audience loved, as evidenced by the comment section of said videos.
    And that mess was pretty annoying, just so you know.

  3. #33
    Colony Founder KhaineGB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmole View Post
    It would be even better if people took all their LBD disussion to the mod threads.
    No, it wouldn't. Because the last part of my quoted post is something YOU guys need to do so we don't have to come up with hacky methods that have caused severe server issues just to get it working.

    And on that note, can we get a method hooked up to display cvars on the UI? Because that requires DLL patches right now too.

  4. #34
    Fun Pimps Staff madmole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katitof View Post
    I don't think you know how hardcore try-hards mind operates.....
    (everything is a race to them, if they can't beat the game or best stuff asap, the game is ♥♥♥♥)
    I'd rather they call it ♥♥♥♥ then mold the game to that game. The game is playable to both demographs. They can install mods to beat it instantly.

  5. #35
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    i apologize for my noobishness... can someone tell me wtf lbd is
    Last edited by pvwolfgang420; 05-04-2019 at 04:41 AM. Reason: wrong area

  6. #36
    Refugee Dark_Corvid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvwolfgang420 View Post
    i apologize for my noobishness... can someone tell me wtf lbd is
    Level By Doing.
    Last edited by Dark_Corvid; 05-04-2019 at 05:13 PM. Reason: I forgot to quote the question I was answering.

  7. #37
    Inventor AtomicUs5000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvwolfgang420 View Post
    i apologize for my noobishness... can someone tell me wtf lbd is
    A lost, ancient art. It's almost never practiced in modern times.
    Last edited by AtomicUs5000; 05-04-2019 at 04:53 AM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvwolfgang420 View Post
    i apologize for my noobishness... can someone tell me wtf lbd is
    The worst progression idea ever conceptualized in the gaming industry...


    Oh no, I am now guilty of bringing back the dead horse *grins*

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvwolfgang420 View Post
    i apologize for my noobishness... can someone tell me wtf lbd is
    Serious answer: "learning by doing" or "level by doing." It was present in A16 and prior, and removed in A17 to be replaced by the current XP system.

    You could think of it as "specialized XP" if you want. If you mined a lot, it increased your mining skill, but not any other skill (like stamina). Also certain abilities were locked behind specialized skills - so in order to make forged iron, you had to be at (say) mining skill 50. (I don't remember what level it actually was.)

    Some players liked it because it reflected the real world - to get better at guitar, you "woodshed" (practice e.g. scales and fingerings), and no matter how good you get, it doesn't make you better at piano. Also, it tended to make players better at the things they were already inclined to do.

    The main criticism is that it resulted in imbalanced gameplay. Players who wanted to make forged iron had to mine, they couldn't ever do it if they were only out in the world killing zombies. Moreover, because it's difficult (even conceptually) to distinguish "real" actions from grinding, players would end up grinding in their downtime. For example, you gained blunt weapon skills through LBD, so many players would just spend the night in some POI clubbing the walls to level up.

    A distinct, but conceptually related, issue is "spam crafting." This happened when the tools you crafted had incremental quality levels between 1 - 600, and that level was increased by crafting more of those items. Players would spend the night making a bunch of stone axes, then immediately scrapping them, just to level their crafting skills. EDIT: This was removed in A16 though.

    TFP didn't like these grinding mechanics and replaced it with the XP system we have now. Lots of players didn't like the change, though I suspect they're in the minority. (A sizable minority, but still a minority.)
    Last edited by khzmusik; 05-04-2019 at 09:36 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaxTeller718 View Post
    And Khaine is 100 percent right. Literally the first thing people are excited to have back when they play our mods are the Action Skills. People want to shoot at a wall to level their pistol go ahead. YOU'RE the idiot wasting in game time. But 16 had it perfect. You could go kill zombies to level your weapon of choice OR you could spend a point or three and not worry about it. Why that was removed when you guys all but took care of spam crafting is beyond me. Spam crafting was no longer even part of the equation.
    Indeed, that's probably what I miss the most from previous iterations. (And wellness, because, albeit not perfect, food meant something.)
    I miss some LBD elements like sprinting, mining, using specific weapons, etc.
    Yes, some skills like armor were a bit funky (as Joel points out), but maybe just needed some fine tuning.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvwolfgang420 View Post
    i apologize for my noobishness... can someone tell me wtf lbd is
    Same here I ain't got a clue either

  12. #42
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    Should of carried on reading posts. Now I know

  13. #43
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Unkfester.pm View Post
    Same here I ain't got a clue either
    Learn by doing AKA shoot to get better at shooting, mine to get better at mining etc...

    And the fun part : Get hit to get better at getting hit

  14. #44
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    All this talk about what should be in and what should be out of the game, is weird to me...

    More complexity = more fun.
    It's only a question of balance.

    As an example, I like LBD. But that does not mean active leveling of the skill, cant be a thing too. It's all in the balance.
    So, you level your club skill by using it. But you could put points in the skill aswell, at a high cost.

    Science, levels slowly by using it, but is generally easier to level actively. (You've seen and observed things, gotten XP and then level science).

    I like things to do. When zombies dropped loot, I lunged at it. Sometimes I got it, sometimes not. And sometimes I got killed. (I usually modded the corpses, so they disappeared quickly).

    All this will also fit with Roland idea of XP per survived days in game...
    Last edited by Menace312; 05-04-2019 at 11:15 AM.

  15. #45
    Refugee Craterz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khzmusik View Post
    <snip>
    - to get better at guitar, you "woodshed" (practice e.g. scales and fingerings), and no matter how good you get, it doesn't make you better at piano.
    <snip>
    I agree with what you said, and I mean no offense when I say this... but... this is not a good example of singular lbd... learning guitar can make you a better piano player. Limiting yourself to the one instrument is a choice (or perhaps you just are lacking a set of keys to pound on). You're still learning whatever music you want to play, you're still learning the theory (if you're involved in it more than just mimicking the tune), really, the only difference is the muscle memory of the actions. Music is still music, chords are still chords, notes are still notes.

    This is actually a good example of why I personally like the current system. Earn the xp by whatever action, spend it how YOU want to. Can it be improved? Sure. But I feel it's a good base to build from. The old lbd was too limiting IMHO.

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