Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 52

Thread: Anybody else annoyed with the AI?

  1. #1
    Scavenger
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    38
    Rep Power
    0

    Anybody else annoyed with the AI?

    I love this game, but there is a growing disconnect from the concept of zombies.

    Let's start from the beginning. I am a zombie freak. I watch zombie 'b' movies, play zombie games, read zombie books, talk zombies, and even think about prepping for the zombie apocalypse...lol. Anyways, zombies are dumb unthinking deadheads that react rather than think. The AI in its current state definitely makes the game more difficult than in A16 which is a good thing, but the zombies are freaking geniuses. They all pile on onto a single block until it's gone and then single file through that space. They do this despite all starting from separate sides of a base. The second an area is breached, every zombie knows it's there and goes for it...well, save for those that get stuck on something. Then there's the issue with dismemberment. Fall damage should cause at least a stage of impaired mobility if not dismemberment. Hell, I modded a recipe back in for the log spikes and they don't cause dismemberment. The entire reason they were OP in the last alpha was because of the dismemberment. Without it they are damn near useless...course they should still be available to the player. Then there is the digging zombies. That in and of itself isn't an issue per say but it makes underground bases damn near undefendable. If the log spikes still caused dismemberment, the AI genius issue would at least be manageable.

    If one observes these issues in conjunction, there becomes a clear issue where the game limits viable defenses. You are almost forced to play in a group, build a base that uses traps and other tools to impede the zombies approach, or you have to take advantage of how their AI works. Brute force defenses are useless as the zombies ignore all but 2 blocks. Defenses built into the side of a hill or mountain or something are useless as the zombies will just dig in the dirt as though they had an engineering degree. Considering that the rwg hasn't created a map with a massive lake in the last dozen worlds I've generated I haven't been able to escape that way. Horde nights have become a test of seeing just how many times I can die in a single night. Couple that with the fact that I haven't NOT run into a bear on day 1 in the last 4 restarts of the game, dying just seems like the point of the game.

    I heard from Kage848 that there will be more allowance for players to play to their own playstyle in A18. Is there any chance the AI will get tweaked for A18? I sure hope so because I feel like my IT degree has become unequal to the zombies engineering degrees. Kage doesn't like the digging zombies. I can live with that but the half dead geniuses really hurt the game. Personally I'd rather there be a specific zombie that digs and instead of going off to the side to find a weaker block to dig it tracked the player and dug over them. I just know that I can't build my favorite types of bases if I wan't to survive.
    Last edited by Stranded_Napkin; 06-10-2019 at 08:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Colony Founder n2n1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    MotherRussia
    Posts
    1,983
    Rep Power
    1
    I agree, i would correct the above: they are not geniuses - just, this AI not suitable for them.

    However...
    They jump out the window when the player enters the room...or start digging stairs....or climb to the roof without any apparent reason....or they start hitting the nearest tree... this ridiculous.
    This is the dumbest AI I've ever seen in a game.
    I sincerely hope that it was inserted into the game only to work out the code for the bandits. Аnd later it will be replaced.
    Last edited by n2n1; 06-10-2019 at 08:23 PM.

  3. #3
    Inventor
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    865
    Rep Power
    1
    According to what I read, the current AI is a base to be used later for the bandits. The zombies are supposed to become dumber again. With 17.2 already some changes have been made which make the zombies look a bit dumber again.

    What is missing at the moment is a certain variance in the behavior of the zombies. I'm not talking about randomness but that not all zombies should attack the same block or line up like a group of conga dancers.

    Nevertheless the zombies should be predictable to a certain degree. If there is a free path they should use it instead of hitting their way through a concrete wall.

  4. #4
    Inventor
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    865
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by n2n1 View Post
    They jump out the window when the player enters the room...or start digging stairs....or climb to the roof without any apparent reason....or...
    Digging through stairs is another problem that needs to be solved. All in all they seem to have problems with railings.

    Conversely, I don't see it as stupid that they jump out of the window when the player enters the room, but as very intelligent. What would you do if a heavily armed lunatic entered the room you were in?

  5. #5
    Colony Founder n2n1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    MotherRussia
    Posts
    1,983
    Rep Power
    1
    Yeah, let's hope for the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by RipClaw View Post
    Conversely, I don't see it as stupid that they jump out of the window when the player enters the room, but as very intelligent. What would you do if a heavily armed lunatic entered the room you were in?
    that's right

  6. #6
    Colony Founder Viktoriusiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    1,225
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by n2n1 View Post
    Yeah, let's hope for the best.


    that's right
    In before it gets moved to questions, pimp dreams or merged with the feedback thread


    Well yes and no.
    On the one hand, you are totally right. Zombies now have a gps, heatseeking nightvision and xray scanners.

    But there are two things I'd like to mention in defense of this (and trust me, me defending A17 is RARE)

    1. its not normal zombies. Its like a human made virus. So think more Uroboros and less like necromancy.
    So they still keep parts of their humanity (and who says that this can't be a sort of basic intelligence with hightened senses)

    2. it is a technical limitation. As this is a voxel game, more than 10-30 zombies at once are breaking most computers.
    So if it really was hordes of stupid zombies, then yes they would be too intelligent.
    But to remain a threat with the numbercount that we CAN have, they need to be more intelligent.



    But I give you this: they ARE too intelligent and faatal (the guy who does pathfinding and ai) said that he is working hard on improving them to a more sensible intelligence. He already made great strides since experimental (when they would always perfectly beeline to you without ever going somewhere else).

    So yeah... I hope they will be a lot better in A18, but don't hold your breath on them ever becoming a huge mindless horde

  7. #7
    Tracker
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    156
    Rep Power
    0
    I think of it like this. how can they make the game more of a challenge?

    2 basic things come to mind with this. 1 add way more zombies, have them be brain dead idiots that react to noise, light and maybe smell but stupid none the less, but since there is so many you have the chance of being swarmed and killed. or 2 make them smart and have there be way less. and why did they go this rout you might ask? because can the game support more zombies to actually make it a challenge? probably not.

  8. #8
    Community Moderator OzHawkeye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,566
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkwolf View Post
    I think of it like this. how can they make the game more of a challenge?

    2 basic things come to mind with this. 1 add way more zombies, have them be brain dead idiots that react to noise, light and maybe smell but stupid none the less, but since there is so many you have the chance of being swarmed and killed. or 2 make them smart and have there be way less. and why did they go this rout you might ask? because can the game support more zombies to actually make it a challenge? probably not.
    And therein lies the problem, the entity controller they're using wouldn't, on an average gamers PC, support the "mass of zombies" approach it seems. I do hope TFP can do something to overcome that, because the basic paradigm of zombies versus bandits should be (imho) huge numbers, dumb as rocks, versus small numbers, sharp as tacks.

    I just don't know if TFP can pull that off though, at least, not with the entity controller as it currently stands anyway I believe from what TFP have said on the matter.

  9. #9
    Colony Founder n2n1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    MotherRussia
    Posts
    1,983
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Viktoriusiii View Post
    1. its not normal zombies. Its like a human made virus. So think more Uroboros and less like necromancy.
    So they still keep parts of their humanity (and who says that this can't be a sort of basic intelligence with hightened senses)
    yeah.....but...no one mentioned or prepared they were not normal zombies, we think they're - ordinary.
    At least it's not obvious, and so it can't be an explanation.

    Perhaps their reaction to the pain indicates this, but it also looks - ridiculous. Just.... it's "unnatural" .
    Last edited by n2n1; 06-10-2019 at 11:24 PM.

  10. #10
    Colony Founder AtomicUs5000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    US
    Posts
    1,100
    Rep Power
    1
    Huge zombie hordes would probably not be in this game. It requires a whole complex system where say a group of zombies perhaps at the center of the horde is actually a single entity. As they break off to attack or perform some special movements, or simply because they are closest to the player and needs to visually show some variance, the animation is perfectly timed so that a single zombie becomes its own entity seamlessly and the group entity is recreated with one less zombie (probably on another thread) and seamlessly replaces the existing, animations and all. The group entity needs to know exactly where bullets hit so that it can virtually break away a zombie at that spot. This is potentially years of development for even a large team working in static worlds. Accomplishing it in a dynamic voxel game would be ground-breaking, but best left for teams of 100+ and millions to spend. I think TFP knows enough about limitations to steer away from attempting such a thing.

  11. #11
    Colony Founder
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    1,482
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by OzHawkeye View Post
    And therein lies the problem, the entity controller they're using wouldn't, on an average gamers PC, support the "mass of zombies" approach it seems. I do hope TFP can do something to overcome that, because the basic paradigm of zombies versus bandits should be (imho) huge numbers, dumb as rocks, versus small numbers, sharp as tacks.

    I just don't know if TFP can pull that off though, at least, not with the entity controller as it currently stands anyway I believe from what TFP have said on the matter.
    I've been hoping for this as well. But yeah, the system they used won't be able to support it. Unless they do a radical shift and change the the engine they use I won't see it happening.

    I'm kinda conflicted with the way the Zombies AI work now. Granted that currently, the way we build bases is more like constructing a miniature Tower Defense game. It was indicated in their kickstarter that the intention was for it to be something like a TD game in a sense if I recall. I'm fine with that to a certain extent but it does put to question whether Zombies should be that smart.

  12. #12
    Community Moderator OzHawkeye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,566
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Euzio View Post
    I've been hoping for this as well. But yeah, the system they used won't be able to support it. Unless they do a radical shift and change the the engine they use I won't see it happening.

    I'm kinda conflicted with the way the Zombies AI work now. Granted that currently, the way we build bases is more like constructing a miniature Tower Defense game. It was indicated in their kickstarter that the intention was for it to be something like a TD game in a sense if I recall. I'm fine with that to a certain extent but it does put to question whether Zombies should be that smart.
    Going forward they won't be as smart as they currently are. Bandits, more or less, will be, but Zombies will, from what TFP have said, revert to a more Zombie like behaviour, still smarter than your "average" Zombie to account for their lack of numbers, but not possessing omniscient knowledge of the entire area, and no longer carrying around pocket slide rulers to work out the easiest path to you.

  13. #13
    Ranger
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    252
    Rep Power
    1
    In my opinion, only thing is better in A17 comparing to A16 is AI, and even if pathfinding sometimes looks too much complex, its not a big deal in most cases, and its a great step forward, and I must say to developers who was responsible for AI and pathfinding - Great Job! Thanks for removing drunken circle dancers!

  14. #14
    Leader Fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Under the snow
    Posts
    5,634
    Rep Power
    1
    I hate how there's several zombies waiting in each and every room of every POI, and they're hand to hand attacks reach further than your swinging club reach. And of course there's those weird looking bird things on every accessible rooftop swarming you along with the dozens more zombies. Worst thing about those birds is they follow you when driving so that the moment you exit your vehicle, they're right on top of you killing you before you have a chance to equip a weapon and attack back, it's even worse when in the gyro-copter cuz you can't exactly do a gentle landing when there's birds attacking you mid-air with propellers doing nothing at all to them. It's ridiculous and the devs need to stop with the nonsense. I get that the game is meant to be difficult, but doing it the lazy way isn't going to win them any awards.

    In terms of AI intelligence... I just don't see it. They're just as dumb now as they always were, in my opinion. They still can't jump large gaps when done properly even though you can (perfect for base building) and they still take easy to manipulate paths directly to you... I often use them to open the locked doors for me during the early game stages. I'm pretty sure my strategies haven't changed much since Alpha 1.

    My sister recently made a base where her only defense was a ramp up to her base on all 4 sides and a large gap using trap doors (no spikes or electrics... well not at first anyways, she got lazy later and plastered the ramps with fencing... what a light show), and the zombies could easily attack the base but chose not to cuz the ramps seemed like a better choice based on their coding. So she just sits there during blood moon shooting fish in a barrel while they charge up a ramp and fall down and then run backwards to the ramp again. Keep in mind, she only just started playing the game about 2 months ago.

    EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention that I do hate the fact that they attack my rows of trees miles away from me now, just because they're too dumb to go around it. I'll be in my base minding my own business when all of a sudden, I hear a tree fall down, I look out to see that it's one of mine. So annoying. Happens a lot during blood moon too. I usually lose 2 or 3 trees per blood moon which is more damage than what they do to my base at any given time (with the exception of spitters).

    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkwolf View Post
    I think of it like this. how can they make the game more of a challenge?

    2 basic things come to mind with this. 1 add way more zombies, have them be brain dead idiots that react to noise, light and maybe smell but stupid none the less, but since there is so many you have the chance of being swarmed and killed. or 2 make them smart and have there be way less. and why did they go this rout you might ask? because can the game support more zombies to actually make it a challenge? probably not.
    There is a 3rd option which I have mentioned countless times over the years... just be more creative and be willing to do the work. Natural disasters like earth quakes, tornadoes, acid rain, heavy fog events, etc... these would greatly add to the atmosphere and immersion. More variety of living threats like underground rodents, rare quiet snakes, spiders in a web in designated locations, fish in certain locations, etc... Gameplay difficulties like being able to get knocked off your bike if you land sideways or clip an obstacle, random breakdowns requiring a simple 10s interaction to get it working again, forge, workbench, etc needing minor repairs once in a while, etc... Instead of plastering the screen with predictable zombies hoping that one of them might get to you, use some creativity and find other means of getting to the players. For example, the falling traps were a nice touch, though used a bit excessively like everything else, so I never fall through anymore.
    Last edited by Fox; 06-11-2019 at 09:21 AM.

  15. #15
    Reconstructionist Khulkhuum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    565
    Rep Power
    1
    If a newbie can find a "perfect base" design, so can anyone else...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •