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Thread: No Tier 6 Crafting

  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    His entire post? It was two short paragraphs. It was pretty clear to me that Laz was taking what Papa was saying and turning it around to a positive way to look at it.

    Papa was lamenting that you can’t always find that specific thing you want when you need it. Laz was saying that that quality adds replay value to the game and allows for multiple play throughs to not feel samey
    I read what they both said. That's not what they said. That's what you're trying to spin it as. Papa wasn't commenting about how he 'needed' a tier 6 fire axe. He was commenting about how he's gotten tons of tier 6 gear but there are plenty of items he's never seen at tier 6. That's not about need. He was talking about building a character a specific way, which inherently results in you relying on very specific pieces of gear, and having no way whatsoever to actually ensure you can acquire those items. If you think he was complaining about not getting a specific tier 6 item when he needed it that's because you didn't read his post. You skimmed/dismissed it. I think your response makes that pretty clear though. He's providing his opinion about luck/rng based loot systems and the first word of your response was 'wrong'. His opinion isn't wrong.

    Though yes, what Laz wrote wasn't a response to that, I agree it seems his intent was to show the positives of the current system and how he enjoys the current loot system. That's a perfectly valid opinion to have too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    I’d say both perspectives are true at the same time and one doesn’t disprove or invalidate the other. It can be frustrating not finding what you want AND it makes the next time you play different if your luck runs differently.
    Sure, they're opinions. But again my point to Laz was not dismissing his opinion. It was that stating what he likes about the system in the way that he said it isn't a response to the issue that Papa put forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    I’m also right AT THE SAME TIME because no matter how you look at it the player can craft up to the highest tier they need in order to be beyond well equipped and that is Tier 5.
    Need isn't really an argument that can be made seriously. This is a game. No one needs anything. Hell, if we're going to quibble about meaningless points, no one needs more than a rank 1 weapons. The systems are all arbitrary anyways based on the subjective design philosophies of the devs. Such a point is just trying to hand wave away people's opinions.

    Frustration and challenge are good things. But they can also be bad things too. The cumbersome nature of armor crafting is an example. 60 parts to craft 5 pieces of gear. Have you ever, in a 100 days played, crafted all 5 pieces of armor at tier 5 because they were better than what you were using? Even in games where I have tried often times I've found tier 6 light armor that's better than the tier 5 heavy armor I've made and I haven't been able to get enough parts to make a full set anyways. It just seems pointless. Add that to the fact that armor skills don't actually increase the damage protection capabilities of armor like weapon skills increase the damage output of weapons and after playing through A18 many times over now I have a hard time justifying armor skills at all. It's just not worth the investment when I know I won't feasibly be able to get the parts to make it when it's relevant to me and even if I try I'm going to find loot that's often times better before I can do so.

    That said, I've already made the point that I think we probably don't see the whole picture of where loot is going to end up and this is an alpha. Providing feedback about where we're at right now is good because it lets Devs see what we think, even if we're ignorant of upcoming changes. They can use that feedback. I'm not going to be as melodramatic as Papa about this ruining the game or anything but I certaining understand where he's coming from.
    Last edited by Niil945; 12-07-2019 at 03:23 AM.

  2. #197
    Colony Founder Jugginator's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree about armor. It costs an ungodly amount of parts to make them. I think I've crafted only a few. Granted, I find them, but even if I scapped all the ones I've found / possibly could have bought at traders I'd maybe have enough for 2 or 3 pieces lol. Would be nice if we could choose which grade to craft, and/or lowering the costs a bit (just the parts).

    I mean, why not make them cost a ton more steel rather than require parts? Or let a max level crafter craft parts.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jugginator View Post
    Yeah, I agree about armor. It costs an ungodly amount of parts to make them. I think I've crafted only a few. Granted, I find them, but even if I scapped all the ones I've found / possibly could have bought at traders I'd maybe have enough for 2 or 3 pieces lol. Would be nice if we could choose which grade to craft, and/or lowering the costs a bit (just the parts).

    I mean, why not make them cost a ton more steel rather than require parts? Or let a max level crafter craft parts.
    Armor is in a tough spot. The primary benefit to taking the armor skills now is the ability to craft the armor because, I presume, they don't want to increase the actual damage protection capabilities of it even more on the skills. There's already a big difference between being armored and not and being well armored and low end armor. I hope the scrap for parts system is only a precursor to something more, like you mentioned the ability to make steel parts with molds or something. It would be cool if we could turn crushed sand and clay into a ceramic mold in the forge, then combine steel + a mold to make specific parts. Then allow us to smelt parts back into the forge for weapons we find out in the wild looting that we don't need. That would complete the system very well I believe.

  4. #199
    Colony Founder Jugginator's Avatar
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    Yeah. It's just that as it is there's really no way one is going to come close to crafting a set of armor before finding an entire set of lvl 5/6 lol. It's kind of a pointless option to even be able to craft em. I almost feel the same way about guns, but tbf they're a dime a dozen compared to armor.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jugginator View Post
    Yeah. It's just that as it is there's really no way one is going to come close to crafting a set of armor before finding an entire set of lvl 5/6 lol. It's kind of a pointless option to even be able to craft em. I almost feel the same way about guns, but tbf they're a dime a dozen compared to armor.
    Absolutely. But also ranking up a skill in guns has a direct and potent impact on how well they do what you use them for. To be fair, they could entirely remove the ability for the skills to make the weapon, put it under a specific Smithing skill in STR or something, and I would still take the relevant weapon skills to the build I'm using in that specific game. Armor doesn't have that luxury. For heavy armor the penalty to movement speed is predominantly offset by taking cardio so in the game I took heavy armor skill, both for the ability to craft it and to offset the movement penalty, I've ended up respec'ing out of it. For light armor the improved customized fittings mod does the work just fine. There's no need for the skill. I'd be interested to see what % of the playerbase who aren't brand spanking new to the game ever put points in armor as my guess would be most people start thinking it's very important and then realize over time that the effect on the armor skills isn't in the same league as the other skills for value.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Wrong.

    Tier 5 is plenty powerful to rely upon and you can craft it. There is nothing critical or necessary about Tier 6 for gameplay. It's nice to have and those few items you find that are Tier 6 are hopefully fantastic. But you can win the game and overcome anything for survival and even thriving by using Tier 5 equipment and it is entirely in your hands to craft those. The ONLY problem I see in what you described is the fact that you are getting lots of tier 6 stuff. It should be maybe a half dozen at most in a 100 day playthrough.

    I can't craft my t5 steel tools, since I haven't been blessed by RNGsus with the schematic yet.....have all the parts needed. So a whole set of tier 1-5 tools are not available because they are locked behind RNG. There is no way for me to work towards them specifically.

    So, while it may be that "tier 5 is plenty powerful to rely upon", in this aspect I can't craft it because it must, essentially, be looted via RNG.

  7. #202
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niil945 View Post
    Snip
    I said the word “Wrong” and you didn’t like that.

    You Then spent several paragraphs telling me what amounts to the word “wrong”—and not only wrong but dishonestly so since apparently I don’t read thoroughly, try to spin things to my ulterior agenda, and am dismissive with hand waving.

    I stand by my response that it was relevant to the context of this thread, and I can only proclaim my own sincerity. It’s also perfectly fine to say that someone’s stance is wrong. At least I said it clearly and with no ad hominem attached. Of course, we all feel as though other people’s point of view is wrong—otherwise there would be nothing to debate and we would all just sing kumbaya, pass out participation trophies, and say everyone is special and super valuable.

  8. #203
    Colony Founder Jugginator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    I said the word “Wrong” and you didn’t like that.

    You Then spent several paragraphs telling me what amounts to the word “wrong”—and not only wrong but dishonestly so since apparently I don’t read thoroughly, try to spin things to my ulterior agenda, and am dismissive with hand waving.

    I stand by my response that it was relevant to the context of this thread, and I can only proclaim my own sincerity. It’s also perfectly fine to say that someone’s stance is wrong. At least I said it clearly and with no ad hominem attached. Of course, we all feel as though other people’s point of view is wrong—otherwise there would be nothing to debate and we would all just sing kumbaya, pass out participation trophies, and say everyone is special and super valuable.

    *takes a gulp of drink*

    Somebody order up a side of salt for those wounds. GG Roland

  9. #204
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guardianangelmp View Post
    I can't craft my t5 steel tools, since I haven't been blessed by RNGsus with the schematic yet.....have all the parts needed. So a whole set of tier 1-5 tools are not available because they are locked behind RNG. There is no way for me to work towards them specifically.

    So, while it may be that "tier 5 is plenty powerful to rely upon", in this aspect I can't craft it because it must, essentially, be looted via RNG.
    That’s true.

    You can craft all tiers of the primitive tools and all tiers of the iron tools. I’d say that a tier 5 iron pick fully modded is a pretty sweet thing to own. You're guaranteed to be able to get a whole set of Tier 5 iron tools without any dependence on whether the right part or book will show up randomly. Do blue level iron tools fully modded suck or something?

    Steel tools should be rare and hard to get whether by looting or crafting. I don’t think anyone should expect to get a full set of them whether by crafting or looting.

    People are used to being able to quickly and easily gear up with all the best and the game is changing so that is not possible any longer. Instead of speeding right to steel crafting and then making all your own steel tools by the second or third week you are going to be using iron tools predominantly with some steel tools when you’re lucky.

    If using the iron tools made the game unplayable I’d agree that it would be horrible that steel tools were so effected by luck but in my opinion the game is very playable with blue iron tools fully modded out. And at least now people won’t be skipping iron almost completely like they did in the past just zipping straight to steel as quickly as possible.
    Last edited by Roland; 12-07-2019 at 06:22 AM.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    I said the word “Wrong” and you didn’t like that.

    You Then spent several paragraphs telling me what amounts to the word “wrong”—and not only wrong but dishonestly so since apparently I don’t read thoroughly, try to spin things to my ulterior agenda, and am dismissive with hand waving.

    I stand by my response that it was relevant to the context of this thread, and I can only proclaim my own sincerity. It’s also perfectly fine to say that someone’s stance is wrong. At least I said it clearly and with no ad hominem attached. Of course, we all feel as though other people’s point of view is wrong—otherwise there would be nothing to debate and we would all just sing kumbaya, pass out participation trophies, and say everyone is special and super valuable.
    It has nothing to do with me liking or disliking the word wrong. You pointed at someone's opinion and said it was wrong. There is no point where an opinion is right or wrong. Conflating "I disagree with your opinion" with "you're wrong" is foolish, but you're welcome to double down and stand by it if you want.

    I never said you were dishonest. You summarized his argument in a way that made it blatantly clear you didn't actually understand his argument for whatever reason and chose to portray it very different than what his position actually was. I called it spin, though to be concise I meant your assessment of his opinion colored by your own bias of the topic, not intentional dishonesty. Still, intentionally dumbing down someone's argument when you summarize their position so you can then dismiss it is inherently dishonest so if that's what it was then dishonest fits. Though a better characterization of that is a strawman. But again, I never said dishonest. I don't know your motivations and I'm trying really hard to not just assume you're going to white knight for the devs and dismiss people who don't like aspects of the game simply because you're a mod. That's why I assumed you simply didn't read his post with an open mind regarding the topic as we are 14+ pages in at this point and I'm sure many people have argued similarly so it's probably a bit of a tired discussion. It made more sense to me to that you probably just glossed his position over rather than it being an instance of you intentionally and maliciously writing him off.

    If you are interested in more than just a semantic pissing contest I actually asked substantive questions on the topic that you glossed over but going around further isn't really productive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jugginator View Post
    *takes a gulp of drink*

    Somebody order up a side of salt for those wounds. GG Roland
    Heh. Wounds?

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicUs5000 View Post
    I think the best way would be if both sides of the coin got some love.
    Some of the best items you can only loot... AND some of the best items you can only craft.
    Correction...
    I think the best way would be if all sides got some love.
    Some of the best items you can only loot... AND some of the best items you can only craft... AND some of the best items you can only buy.

    Now combine all of this together where it becomes an ultimate trifecta quest to obtain a special item from each in order to do something extra special. What these items might be and what that special activity might be is left to imagination.

  12. #207
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Okay Niil, let's do this the right way so I can help you see where I was coming from and where I think Laz was coming from. Plus, now at least you'll know I haven't at this point skimmed a thing. Now, please keep in mind that this thread is and has been all about not being able to craft Tier 6 quality items as of A18....

    Here is the pApA's quote that you claim neither myself nor Laz understood. I am going to rephrase line by line.

    Quote Originally Posted by pApA^LeGBa View Post
    i hate this change. It´s such a luck based game now. Congrats on taking away an achievment for the player and replacing it with lottery. Not fun.
    pApA doesn't enjoy the A18 change of not being able to craft quality 6 gear. He felt it was an achievement to be able to do so and TFP has removed it and replaced it with pure chance and he doesn't find that enjoyable.

    I got a lot of tier 6 stuff yeah. Triples, Doubles some things even 4 times.
    pApA has lots of Tier 6 stuff but its random stuff-even duplicates of what he already has.

    But a single pick-, fireaxe or shovel? A pistol? A Junk turret? A stunbaton? Not on day 65.
    pApA has named some specific gear that he would have liked to be able to have had before day 65. Given the context of the thread and his own feelings he shared in his first sentence I feel safe in saying he wishes he could have crafted those Tier 6 items long before day 65.

    You build up your character in a certain way and then you have to rely on rng. meh.
    pApA states his view that you make choices about how to progress as a character and then have to rely on chance to be able to get gear that matches the way you chose to progress.


    Now in response to that post I posted the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Wrong.
    Oh....the horror.....

    I think most readers who didn't flinch at the W-word and refrained from then skimming what I posted would know that I wasn't saying he is wrong about the fact that he doesn't like the changes and doesn't find the fact that Tier 6 is now loot only fun. Of course he can't be wrong about that and I would never try to say that someone is wrong about how they have fun. So what I was saying he was w---g about was his statements in the second part of his post and I elaborate on exactly what that was in my own opinion.

    Tier 5 is plenty powerful to rely upon and you can craft it. There is nothing critical or necessary about Tier 6 for gameplay. It's nice to have and those few items you find that are Tier 6 are hopefully fantastic. But you can win the game and overcome anything for survival and even thriving by using Tier 5 equipment and it is entirely in your hands to craft those. The ONLY problem I see in what you described is the fact that you are getting lots of tier 6 stuff. It should be maybe a half dozen at most in a 100 day playthrough.
    pApA was making the claim that a character cannot gear up without relying on luck. My counterpoint to that is that a character can gear up with a full set of gear that is top level stuff and that supports their build. That top level is now blue and there isn't anything wrong with it. It is equal to the task of playing the game and succeeding. If you can't see the connection between what I am saying and what pApA was saying then I'm sorry but I sincerely think that it is a better design to have the best legendary stuff be uncraftable and luck of the draw and that it should be rare-- much rarer than it is now. I think TFP is wro-- er...incorrect to make it a guaranteed quest reward.

    So now Laz...

    Quote Originally Posted by Laz Man View Post
    I sorta like how you cant get things right away, it makes you make different choices which leads to each playthrough being different. In my current game (Day 50) I have 7 junk turrets but no m60. I'm currently specced for INT to take advantage of all the turrets and having a blast with my horde base.

    Hopefully I get an M60 in my next playthrough so I can try a different strategy/build.
    Actually a pretty friendly post. If this is Laz on a bad day then somebody stomp on his toes every day before he starts posting.... Laz is also responding to the idea that as players we should be able to get the specific gear we want to get and not go all the way to Day 65 without having a Tier 6 shovel, or Tier 6 junk turret. He mentions that he never got an M60 in this game and hopes it shows up in his next game. It is a direct response to pApA's (and others earlier in the thread) lament that some things don't show up in the game due to a reliance upon chance.

    Now you....

    Quote Originally Posted by Niil945 View Post
    I'm confused. What does crafting stuff have anything to do with getting them right away. You can't craft tier 5 gear until you get 10 points into a stat and then raise the stat to 5. So at a minimum someone needs 21 skill points to get a particular skill to cap so they can craft 5's.
    Let's keep it in the context of pApA's post where he said Day 65 and things he wanted hadn't shown up. Crafting stuff has to do with it because if you could craft Tier 6 gear you would probably be able to do it long before Day 65. Not immediately as in Day 2 but I think we both know Laz wasn't talking about that type of immediacy. I think we both know that Laz was saying that the positive side of not having things be craftable is that you have to try and make do without and play the hand you're dealt and who knows, maybe in your next game you'll find that thing you wanted and it will make that next playthrough different and exciting. I don't know. The connection seems pretty clear to me.

    That doesn't give them the resources or the materials (i.e. weapon/tool/armor parts) that they then still need to farm up, which are also random. I also like how your final comment makes the point about loot being completely luck based even further. To make an M60 you need to find a book on top of all the previous things I listed (assuming it ranks along with automatic weapon skill under fort).
    There is nothing random about iron tools and so to Laz's point, maybe in this current game maybe the best you will ever have is a Quality 5 iron pickaxe you crafted yourself modded to the max (woe is me) but possibly a Quality 6 Steel shovel. This game you get an amazing shovel but a only a very very good pickaxe. The next game you play maybe the pickaxe will be the amazing tool. And as I said, he wasn't necessarily trying to refute pApA's claim that T6 is reliant upon random chance so much as share what he liked about it. Besides, who could refute that T6 is reliant upon random chance? Of course it is. That is the new design.

    In essence, your response might have well have been, 'I like turtles!' because it doesn't actually address anything you quoted at all. So cool, you like an aspect of the game that would barely change if people could craft tier 6 at 5 in the relevant skill. Cool, I guess?
    Now here is where for the first time someone who later calls for everyone to let people have their opinions gets snarky for....what reason? Laz was polite in his response and wasn't even the evil man who used the w-word.

    And I'm not even sure you are correct in your assessment. If people could craft tier 6 in the relevant skill that would barely change the game by Day 65? I think we've seen the big change it has made. In A17 and before most people had full sets of purple quality gear long before Day 65. In fact, I'm betting that after about day 30 everyone's game was pretty much just like every previous playthrough they had ever had because they were able to craft everything at the highest qualities. So, no, unless Laz purposely chose not to craft certain things in order to go without for the purpose of artificially making this playthrough be different than the next he wouldn't be able to be cool and like his turtles.

  13. #208
    Leader Laz Man's Avatar
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    My hat's off to you Roland for trying to clarify the back and forth. Especially on a Friday. Thank you sir for the time and effort.

    @Nii and @Roland ... if there is still a disagreement at this point, lets all agree to simply disagree and move on at this point. Personally, I am about to load up the game and continue my current save, do a quest or 2, update my horde base for Day 56 and have fun in the process. I recommend you two do both as well.

  14. #209
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    pApA has named some specific gear that he would have liked to be able to have had before day 65. Given the context of the thread and his own feelings he shared in his first sentence I feel safe in saying he wishes he could have crafted those Tier 6 items long before day 65.

    He's talking about how there are some items he's seen 4 times at the best quality and some that he's seen at none. At no point did he say "I'd like to have these by day 65". That's not a statement about what he wants to have itemwise, it's a statement that reinforces his original point about how it's now entirely luck based. This is you adding to what he said to make it into a different argument than the one he's made. That's exactly what I said, you were spinning his argument.

    pApA was making the claim that a character cannot gear up without relying on luck. My counterpoint to that is that a character can gear up with a full set of gear that is top level stuff and that supports their build. That top level is now blue and there isn't anything wrong with it.

    Yes and no. He was lamenting the change from the old system to the new system, wherein previously one could craft to that level and now one can't. And the top level of stuff is not 5. It's 6. And it's very easily farmable from non-crafting but even then there's no player agency to the loot system at all.

    Let's keep it in the context of pApA's post where he said Day 65 and things he wanted hadn't shown up.

    I'm sorry, but where did he say "I want to be able to craft these things by day 65?" That's sort of the crux of the situation, you assert he means something he didn't actually say. To put it simply he was talking about player agency with non-RNG progression. I'm not interested in you telling me what he means when I can read what he said and the statement your saying isn't the same thing.

    Laz was polite in his response

    You and I have a different opinion about that. Tone is hard to read in text, I was making my point by using a silly example that I thought would be taken as lightly as the content of the point was. It wasn't hostile or attacking. Clearly it was perceived that way. And his response was clearly extremely defensive/snarky in return. My comment about not much would change is in context of the current system, a whole lot changed beyond simply the removal of the ability to craft tier 6. If the only change to A18 that happened was the ability to craft to tier 6 not much would change by day 65. I'm at day 15 in a relatively fresh play through. I'm at tier 5 quests already. I random looted an auger out of the very first item I opened (a car). I random looted a steel fire axe on day 2. I random looted a steel shovel on day 8. I can't even craft steel yet because I'm missing a crucible. I do not have a steel melee weapon or a set of armor maxed yet but I can rush about 1 tier 5 clear quest a day and get ~50 guaranteed tier 6 items in that time frame if I push hard. If I take my time and do them overnight I can very easily knock out 25 of them. And that's not counting the loot room stuff or that this toon is not a heavy melee combat toon that can clear quickly.

  15. #210
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    @Roland so you say they are basically just pretty? Well let´s remove Tier6 then. It´s pure luck and does, by your words, nothing for the gameplay. Why even have them then? For the gambling feeling? They should make a casino for people who want this. It´s nothing but frustrating to sit on all the wrong items. No matter if you really need them or not.

    @Lazman you can´t get tier 6 right away. Assuming you need a 10 in the attribute this would take quite a while.

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