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Thread: Another "direction of the game thread" and iam concerned...

  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGerry View Post

    <snip>

    Then stop investing so much. Do Neebs gaming get upset when they all die horribly? I think we, as players, could maybe stand to be alittle less precious and have a little more fun; and I reckon 'Hey MM, this is sick; we got annihilated with a strong base, great fun, but seriously nerf this jobby-sniffing Demolisher' is MUCH more likely to land than 'Hey MM, I build a steel base and it was destroyed, this is crap; you need to fix this so that my base doesn't get destroyed or I'm not playing anymore!'.

    <snip>

    Here's your problem, and your opportunity. A capable, clever and focused player OUGHT to be able to build an OP base - but not EVERYBODY should. If you put in the thought, put in the effort, get the materials, make the base and get upgrades, traps, turrets and all that then ABSOLUTELY it should be POSSIBLE to perfect an auto kill base - but it should never be easy, it should never be even moderate; ad it must not throw the rest of the game - SP or MP out of whack too badly. Risk vs reward.
    <snips> made for brevity.

    1.) I love Neebs gaming, but I don't think they're a good comparison to most players. First and foremost, they are actively creating a show that's akin more to a sitcom than someone like Vedui's instructional videos and playthroughs. I don't doubt they have fun, and I love their content, but c'mon a lot of the ideas they come up with are doomed to fail, easy to see that they will, and are probably intended to fail. (Remember the glass house made from wooden windows?) It's no slight to their skill as players, but it is very much a show for them.

    2.) "A capable, clever, and focused player ought...." That depends on your intended outcome is and how high the bar is set. Most people are going to copy or mimic things that they know (fences, walls, traps) while exploring the game's handling of these things. They should have decent success with that instead of something like "well if you build a wall mostly out of x blocks with some y blocks on the bottom right outside, the zombies can't seem to reach you as easy or destroy that block as fast". Is it a clever use of blocks? Yes, and I've seen some cool bases that utilize the differentiation of blocks (and not what I would consider 'cheese' builds). Is it something I expect most players to take the time experimenting with how different blocks and different block combinations? No. To me it's the difference of redstone investment in Minecraft. There are a lot of cool things people can do with it, but most players probably explore the basics instead of building mega lanes of self moving carts that dump inventory into self sorting conveyers. Can any player theoretically do the latter? Yes. Will most of them have that kind of investment in the game? Probably not. So if the game relies too heavily on meticulous player experimentation to survive later on, that, IMO would be a problem. But I'll see when I get there.

    I think I had a point 3, but I haven't had enough coffee yet to remember it.

  2. #347
    Colony Founder Ghostlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGerry View Post
    Then stop investing so much.

    You are 110% right. You've hit the nail on the head and won the internet etc etc. I'm serious here. The easiest way to deal with Demolishers is to invest as little as possible into the way you deal with them, so you lose as a little as possible when they inevitably explode. The problem with that fact is you (well the devs) are pushing a playstyle on me that I dislike. Taking your suggestion to the extreme (i.e. invest nothing) would be hiding on top of a POI till its morning and not engaging them at all. I won't do that. Next up in terms of minimal investment is the 8x8 concrete tower and M60 spray and pray, MM style. I won't do that either. You see my problem, right? I want to get creative but these enemies are anti-creative, pro-exploit.

    Final addendum - if any of this sounds like it's insulting and pointed at you, or anyone else specifically, it's not - I'm trying to talk in broad terms and if that does not come across I apologize without reservation. Great chat though.
    I appreciate you saying this. No problem my end for the record. And agree the chat is great.

    Oh just noticed you're in Edinburgh!!

    /me waves from Lanark
    Last edited by Ghostlight; 12-04-2019 at 01:39 PM.

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    You are 110% right. You've hit the nail on the head and won the internet etc etc. I'm serious here. The easiest way to deal with Demolishers is to invest as little as possible into the way you deal with them, so you lose as a little as possible when they inevitably explode. The problem with that fact is you (well the devs) are pushing a playstyle on me that I dislike. Taking your suggestion to the extreme (i.e. invest nothing) would be hiding on top of a POI till its morning and not engaging them at all. I won't do that. Next up in terms of minimal investment is the 8x8 concrete tower and M60 spray and pray, MM style. I won't do that either. You see my problem, right? I want to get creative but these enemies are anti-creative, pro-exploit.
    Hi Lanark, nice to know there are other Scots around!

    I hear you, but I strongly disagree on the extremes you're describing. The easiest way to deal with any zombie is to avoid it; but we choose not to. The next easiest thing to do is kill them. The demolisher is tricky because where and how you kill them matters.

    You could just run / drive. That's one option.

    You could move around a large POI or number of structures, strategically retreating as and when necessary. This could be POI's and Player built structures, or a combination thereof. These could be tough and built to survive an explosion and repaired; or they could be built cheaply on the premis that if an explosion happens you don't want it to take out something you spent significant time or resources building.

    You could build stuff specifically to contain and receive such explosions, or in such a way that the PLAN is to kill them without exploding, but ready to retreat back if an accident happens.

    You can plan to try and kill the whole horde, or just to keep em occupied while you pick off the demolishers, then let traps kill the others. You can try to gate, herd or steer the zeds to this end.

    You can have mini bases for the day 7, 14 and 21 horde all the while working on a grander structure for demolishers; or be constantly adding to a main horde base to give it multiple layers. You could Not bother, and just use POI's and let them be destroyed.

    there are not only two options, it's just that investigating the various options would take one player or one team a long, long time; certainly multiple play-throughs - and that's the kind of feedback the Devs will want before changing anything. The fastest feedback they get it always 'I tried this once and I hate it', followed by 'We've tried the same thing with the latest build and we still hate it.' followed by 'we've complained about hating this twice now, why haven't you changed it?' followed by 'the Devs hate fun and this game is dead since we still hate this thing.'

    It takes weeks, maybe months to get the 'we have tried this various ways, in the stable build, with multiple builds, SP, PVP and PVE and run various tests and here are our findings'; and that's what the whole process is about.

    I think the demolishers demand MORE creativity, and are anti-exploit; the only thing that you can't do anymore is rely on previous designs to keep you safe indefinitely.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGerry View Post
    I think the demolishers demand MORE creativity, and are anti-exploit; the only thing that you can't do anymore is rely on previous designs to keep you safe indefinitely.
    And how exactly do you imagine this creative solution for the demolisher ?

    If we could build everything we can imagine without running into the limitations of the game, we wouldn't have the problems.

    The zombie pathfinding is often very wonky. A single block can make a big difference. The electric traps sometimes cannot be connected because they are too far apart. Especially if you have no visual contact between the traps, then you can only make the connection over a distance of 7 blocks. If I make the base too big then the horde night becomes a slide show.

    A creative approach would be to filter the zombies. One way for the demolisher and one way for the other zombies. The model of the demolisher suggests that he is 2.5 meters tall. However, he can pass all openings through which the other zombies also fit. This means that filtering by size is not possible.
    Last edited by RipClaw; 12-04-2019 at 03:24 PM.

  5. #350
    Colony Founder AtomicUs5000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipClaw View Post
    A creative approach would be to filter the zombies. One way for the demolisher and one way for the other zombies. The model of the demolisher suggests that he is 2.5 meters tall. However, he can pass all openings through which the other zombies also fit. This means that filtering by size is not possible.
    Right. This is a characteristic of the zombie that the player should be able to use to their advantage in creative ways.
    In fact, if there were more things like that to satisfy the need to tinker and explore possible and effective builds creatively, less people would be so focused on trying to find that one unintended exploit every time there is a change. All enemies should have their varied strengths and weaknesses that need to be evaluated by the player so that creative decisions can be made.

  6. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipClaw View Post
    A creative approach would be to filter the zombies. One way for the demolisher and one way for the other zombies. The model of the demolisher suggests that he is 2.5 meters tall. However, he can pass all openings through which the other zombies also fit. This means that filtering by size is not possible.
    Well they used to be 2.5 meters tall and we had a filter for them that worked 99% of the time without blowing them up. That apparently in late OCT early NOV made the devs mad, so they shrunk down all the taller zeds to the same height as everybody else and it stopped the filter from working. Creative solution now thrown out the window. Which almost makes me think they don't like creative solutions.

    Since then the only solutions that work are the bomb pit that keeps getting deeper or having LOTS of guys with guns. Four at least. Problem with that is I do not have 4 guys with guns. I am lucky to have 1 other guy with me with a gun on horde night and the two of us can not keep up with the demos showing up before they make craters out of our horde base. If I had 3 more people with us firing M60's then this would probably be a non-issue.

    But it's an issue now. Because I don't have that.

    It's gonna keep being an issue until they eventually nerf them and we all know they will. But it might be in A19.

  7. #352
    Colony Founder Ghostlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orclover View Post
    Since then the only solutions that work are the bomb pit that keeps getting deeper or having LOTS of guys with guns. Four at least. Problem with that is I do not have 4 guys with guns. I am lucky to have 1 other guy with me with a gun on horde night and the two of us can not keep up with the demos showing up before they make craters out of our horde base.
    Have you tried raining Pipe Bombs / Grenades / Rocket Launcher fire down on them? I believe all those things do low block damage (5 to 10) but high entity damage, so you should be OK with using them (and not make things worse).

  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGerry View Post
    I think the demolishers demand MORE creativity, and are anti-exploit; the only thing that you can't do anymore is rely on previous designs to keep you safe indefinitely.
    As was mentioned by an above poster, the problem is that it seems anything that can safely and effectively deal with Demolishers without requiring a lot of bullets (the height-filtering, for example) gets branded 'cheese' or an 'exploit' and 'fixed.' This suggests that the developers really do have an intended solution or set of solutions that they're trying to enforce and that, more importantly, going outside those intended solutions is punished with nerfs and 'fixes.' This makes it anti-creativity rather than pro-creativity.

    Not everything that happens unintentionally is an exploit, and not all cheese is necessarily bad. The only area they make a difference is in competitive multiplayer, which 7D2D doesn't really have and horde-affecting shenanigans don't really affect anyway. I think that only the big ones that completely alter the intended flow or pacing of the game (A17's zombie pathfinding, for example, was hard to avoid exploiting even accidentally, and I'll even say that A16's spike pits were far too foolproof) should be looked at, while minor ones are probably safe to ignore since those systems will be getting changed anyway as the alphas march on.

  9. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipClaw View Post
    And how exactly do you imagine this creative solution for the demolisher ?
    I just listed a BUNCH of ideas, dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by RipClaw View Post
    The zombie pathfinding is often very wonky. A single block can make a big difference. The electric traps sometimes cannot be connected because they are too far apart. Especially if you have no visual contact between the traps, then you can only make the connection over a distance of 7 blocks. If I make the base too big then the horde night becomes a slide show.
    The pathfinding is wonky, which allows for a little bit of unpredictability, but by and large they are predictable, and can be effectively steered by what you build where. The limitations of the range or electric traps encourages multiple smaller fronts rather than few wider ones, and actually, since the bits the zeds will / can attack can be very sepcifically predicted, you don't need a massive base, and you don't need to use concrete / steel / traps all over it.

    The simplest system I can think of that might work for later hordes would be;

    A Raised Small Steel and concrete thick walled core base from which guns can be fired, with an escape route to vehicle near-bye. Ideally this would never have to be actively defended; but is the final strong point if all else falls.

    A Winding extending wall creating a single path, which circles the core base at least once - but could be extended indefinitely. Thin, but long open walkways between regular strong points or gate houses - perhaps concrete, perhaps just upgraded cobble - Zeds can be shot from the core base all along this path, and junk turrets, dart traps, auto turrets, electric fences, blade traps and spikes line it - but placed so they are only ever firing from directly above or behind, or only hitting legs / heads (pending testing)

    four strong entry points along the wall facing N, S, E, W fronted with blade traps. These would be where the first fight of horde night happens, and would be steel, and at least 2 thick kill box front, so you can resist at least 1 demo explosion. When it's getting thin or breaks you retreat along the wall path to the next strong point, and hold them there until the next break; or raise a drawbridge and move to the next N, S, E ,W gate and begin again.

    A Large dry moat surrounding the base, but with stairways up at each corner, so that they DO fall in there, but always have a way back up to get back to one of the NSEW entry points, but so they don't start hammering in from underneath.

    Basic spikes all along the length and breadth to do passive damage throughout.

    Barred rooftops to filter vultures out of the equation, if needed. Seperate 'low' a block entry ways to let dogs and crawlers through, so they can be killed seperately.

    There are LOTS of creative things to try; but you won't think of them all or have time to test them all, and neither will I - but a lot of the people asking for creative ideas are so averse to risk, it seems, that what they are perhaps actually seeking is something invincible which they can copy, ideally cheaply and quickly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    Have you tried raining Pipe Bombs / Grenades / Rocket Launcher fire down on them? I believe all those things do low block damage (5 to 10) but high entity damage, so you should be OK with using them (and not make things worse).
    I didn't actually know about that - great info, thanks!

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobTheBard View Post
    As was mentioned by an above poster, the problem is that it seems anything that can safely and effectively deal with Demolishers without requiring a lot of bullets (the height-filtering, for example) gets branded 'cheese' or an 'exploit' and 'fixed.' This suggests that the developers really do have an intended solution or set of solutions that they're trying to enforce and that, more importantly, going outside those intended solutions is punished with nerfs and 'fixes.' This makes it anti-creativity rather than pro-creativity.

    Not everything that happens unintentionally is an exploit, and not all cheese is necessarily bad. The only area they make a difference is in competitive multiplayer, which 7D2D doesn't really have and horde-affecting shenanigans don't really affect anyway. I think that only the big ones that completely alter the intended flow or pacing of the game (A17's zombie pathfinding, for example, was hard to avoid exploiting even accidentally, and I'll even say that A16's spike pits were far too foolproof) should be looked at, while minor ones are probably safe to ignore since those systems will be getting changed anyway as the alphas march on.
    I think the problem is that the height filtering was just TOO safe and effective. Orclover suggests 99%? People are of all shapes and sizes, I don't think it's 'intended' that all zombies of one type are the same height, that's a limitation of the game engine.

    I would say, yes, something which is 99% safe and effective and stops them blowing is OP - the demo is supposed to make your base more vulnerable, and make passive and non ammo defense harder. If you find a cheap and easy bypass that can, and therefore will, promptly be adopted by the majority of players who will then have invulnerable, passive melee bases, the I think it should be removed.

    Why? Because otherwise nobody will be giving accurate feedback to balance the Demolishers because everyone will be bypassing them.

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGerry View Post
    I just listed a BUNCH of ideas, dude.

    ....
    Your ideas all include the use of guns. Shooting with guns at zombies is the opposite of being creative for me.
    For me, a creative solution is when I can defeat the horde without lifting a finger. Being creative means using your mind and not firepower.

    By the way, it can always happen to you that you accidentally trigger the explosion when you shoot at the demolisher. And that's what I'm trying to prevent.

  12. #357
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    Bah. I wanted Roland to answer. But yeah, there you have the problem. You can easily get them extremely early. No base you can build by day 14 can engage Demolishers and survive them without exploits.
    I agree that Day 14 is too soon for Demolishers whether it is co-op or not. That is a problem with MP balance that can certainly be brought up over in the feedback and balance thread. I think they should start appearing no sooner than Day 28 or Day 35 horde night, personally.

    Maybe a possible option would be to disconnect them from the gamestage and instead create an option for which blood moon night they start appearing. That way you could select a really high one if you want to play for 100 days without seeing them. Or just increase the gamestage at which they start appearing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    Have you tried raining Pipe Bombs / Grenades / Rocket Launcher fire down on them? I believe all those things do low block damage (5 to 10) but high entity damage, so you should be OK with using them (and not make things worse).

    We have avoided explosives for the most part but we may have to give them a try.

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Maybe a possible option would be to disconnect them from the gamestage and instead create an option for which blood moon night they start appearing. That way you could select a really high one if you want to play for 100 days without seeing them. Or just increase the gamestage at which they start appearing.
    Or just an option to disable them altogether, which would be welcomed by people who already mod them out. This seems like a good option to have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGerry View Post
    I think the problem is that the height filtering was just TOO safe and effective. Orclover suggests 99%? People are of all shapes and sizes, I don't think it's 'intended' that all zombies of one type are the same height, that's a limitation of the game engine.

    I would say, yes, something which is 99% safe and effective and stops them blowing is OP - the demo is supposed to make your base more vulnerable, and make passive and non ammo defense harder. If you find a cheap and easy bypass that can, and therefore will, promptly be adopted by the majority of players who will then have invulnerable, passive melee bases, the I think it should be removed.

    Why? Because otherwise nobody will be giving accurate feedback to balance the Demolishers because everyone will be bypassing them.
    First, 'people are of all shapes and sizes?' Yeah, sure, but you probably shouldn't bring realism into things when you're talking about a flesh-eating walking corpse that explodes like a car bomb and appears like clockwork every seven days under a blood-red moon. I know 7 Days isn't the most realistic game to start with and never has been, but the Demolisher is an especially action-gamey element.

    Was height-filtering effective? Sure. But was it creative? Extremely. And now it's gone, because the creative solution was deemed an exploit and removed. That's what I mean when I say anti-creativity - A creative solution was discovered and just as quickly destroyed because it wasn't the intended non-creative way to deal with it. As you yourself basically admit because you state what the intended way to deal with them is. That's what I refer to when I call demolishers and the way they're being handled anti-creative. There's one intended way to deal with it and anything else is wrong and needs 'fixing.' It's the antithesis of creativity.

    As for effective feedback, that's not going to be affected. People who are looking for a way to avoid demolishers are going to find a way to avoid demolishers, whether it be letting them blow up useless POIs, avoiding late-gamestage hordes altogether, or just modding them out, because they've already given their feedback (they hate them) and there's nothing more they can contribute to that discussion. And when they do, they tend to get dog-piled by people who either don't agree with or don't believe them, so what's the point of offering more feedback? They'll just mod them out or avoid them so the game goes back to being fun.

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