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Thread: No perk points in vain!

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmole View Post
    We're adding a farm plot crafting discount to ranks 2 and 3 in an upcoming update. Grease Monkey reduces cost of parts needed to craft vehicles and will have more when we do a substantial vehicle update.
    Glad to hear that you are working on this matter, keep it up!

  2. #32
    Inventor Kalarro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    I feel the general concept that Perks can unlock recipes that are also loot-able and purchasable from traders is a bad design. It gives rise to all of the following possibilities, none of which result in a positive player experience...

    1) The schematic never drops, so you are forced into Perks you didn't really want to be (e.g that damn Crucible forced me to Int 10)

    2) The schematics drop after you bit the bullet and bought the Perk.

    3) More often than not, both of the above!!! Grrrrrrrrrr.

    4) Some of the schematics drop, but you end up missing a crucial one to complete the set (usually occurs with vehicles)

    So in short, I think schematics should either be loot/buy only OR Perk only. Not both.
    Agree. It makes spending perks a risk instead of a joy.

  3. #33
    Colony Founder Ghostlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamnuff View Post
    Having an option to respec is basically mandatory for a game like this.
    That's your opinion. A lot of people like "choices matter" in RPGs. This elixir basically means Perk choices do not matter.

    Not everybody perfectly optimises their build on the first try, and realising that you've messed up your skill-choices and having the only way to fix it be to delete your whole character and start over would be really punishing.
    Not really since they recommend that you start again with every new build on experimental. Either way, it is very typical for games that do provide a respec to make that reapec option cost a LOT. This one the cost is negligible. 30k dukes around the time you want to exploit it is basically nothing; you will have way more wealth than that. If one dose of the elixir gave you perhaps 1 or 2 points back, then it just might be balanced.

    Personally, I don't buy respec potions (because they're prohibitively expensive)
    Not sure if serious. 30k is prohibitive? You're doing it wrong then.

    I think the risk of people trying to minmax by investing in int, building everything that they ever plan to build, and then swapping to something else is pretty unlikely.
    Not only is it cheap (sorry we will have to disagree on that one), but the elixir is not even remotely rare. Traders sell it always it seems.

    Int is probably the most useful skill-tree in the game, just for trading, crafting and questing.
    You don't have to remove all your Int points. Even Int 5 gives a really good boost to the things you listed above.

    Not to mention that you need to continuously build more things as you keep playing.
    Eh? How many Gyrocopters do you need?

    "building everything you'll ever need all at once before respecing into something else"is a completely unrealistic idea.
    Well I can see why you might think that if you consider the 30k dukes to buy the elixir as expensive. I do not. Day 30 and I have more dukes than I could ever spend; they are now my Brass source, nothing more. It is extremely easy to do this, and by the time you'd want to do it, it is extremely CHEAP to do it as well. I'll wager right now that speccing out of Int after you got everything you wanted is the most common use for this elixir.

    The amount of materials you'd need to make the dozens of turrets, blade-traps, darts traps. The ten forges, workbenches and chem-stations The motorbike/car for each member of the group.
    Forges don't count. You can easily have 10 of them in the first few days with just 1 person putting 1 point in Engineering. After that you just need everyone mining Iron as Steel is the main bottle neck for everything you want to cheese out of the Int tree before you respec. You can easily mass produce smelted Iron while one player heads to Int 10. Easy peasy. Chem Stations don't count either since they need only 1 point to build.
    Last edited by Ghostlight; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:36 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    That's your opinion. A lot of people like "choices matter" in RPGs. This elixir basically means Perk choices do not matter.



    Not really since they recommend that you start again with every new build on experimental. Either way, it is very typical for games that do provide a respec to make that reapec option cost a LOT. This one the cost is negligible. 30k dukes around the time you want to exploit it is basically nothing; you will have way more wealth than that. If one dose of the elixir gave you perhaps 1 or 2 points back, then it just might be balanced.



    Not sure if serious. 30k is prohibitive? You're doing it wrong then.



    Not only is it cheap (sorry we will have to disagree on that one), but the elixir is not even remotely rare. Traders sell it always it seems.



    You don't have to remove all your Int points. Even Int 5 gives a really good boost to the things you listed above.



    Eh? How many Gyrocopters do you need?



    Well I can see why you might think that if you consider the 30k dukes to buy the elixir as expensive. I do not. Day 30 and I have more dukes than I could ever spend; they are now my Brass source, nothing more. It is extremely easy to do this, and by the time you'd want to do it, it is extremely CHEAP to do it as well. I'll wager right now that speccing out of Int after you got everything you wanted is the most common use for this elixir.



    Forges don't count. You can easily have 10 of them in the first few days with just 1 person putting 1 point in Engineering. After that you just need everyone mining Iron as Steel is the main bottle neck for everything you want to cheese out of the Int tree before you respec. You can easily mass produce smelted Iron while one player heads to Int 10. Easy peasy. Chem Stations don't count either since they need only 1 point to build.
    And your talking out of your arse about 30k dukes. I play with iamnuff so i know what our income looks like and 10k dukes in a single day is a big deal. We can get 30k sure, but it's not some trivial to acquire amount. We have to actively work at it to get that much. And given all the time and effort we have to spend into rebuilding our supplies and repairing and beefing up our defences between each horde night we just can't afford to spend all day everyday doing quests, there isn't enough time in the day for that. Which means 30k is a once a horde night thing at best.

    Sure if you've found some exploit i'm sure you can make oodles of dukes. Just as exploiting zombie pathing can reduce the defences needed by leaps and bounds. But an argument based on exploits is automatically invalid because the devs are actively patching exploits out as fast as they can find and figure out a solution. Your not going to be able to sue those exploitive methods to do somthing forever.

  5. #35
    Community Moderator OzHawkeye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Bar View Post
    And your talking out of your arse about 30k dukes. I play with iamnuff so i know what our income looks like and 10k dukes in a single day is a big deal. We can get 30k sure, but it's not some trivial to acquire amount. We have to actively work at it to get that much. And given all the time and effort we have to spend into rebuilding our supplies and repairing and beefing up our defences between each horde night we just can't afford to spend all day everyday doing quests, there isn't enough time in the day for that. Which means 30k is a once a horde night thing at best.

    Sure if you've found some exploit i'm sure you can make oodles of dukes. Just as exploiting zombie pathing can reduce the defences needed by leaps and bounds. But an argument based on exploits is automatically invalid because the devs are actively patching exploits out as fast as they can find and figure out a solution. Your not going to be able to sue those exploitive methods to do somthing forever.
    I've got about 300,000 Dukes now. Admittedly, it's Day 125 on my game, so it's been going for a while, but I don't think it didn't anything particularly exploitative - biggest sellers are the armor and weapon pieces I'm finding now, of which I'm finding a lot, at good quality levels, and selling it all, unless I specifically want to use it.

    30,000 Dukes ain't nothing to be sure, but I also don't think it's a massive hurdle either.

    That said, I think the elixir should remain in the base game, and those that don't want it, can mod it out.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzHawkeye View Post
    I've got about 300,000 Dukes now. Admittedly, it's Day 125 on my game, so it's been going for a while, but I don't think it didn't anything particularly exploitative - biggest sellers are the armor and weapon pieces I'm finding now, of which I'm finding a lot, at good quality levels, and selling it all, unless I specifically want to use it.

    30,000 Dukes ain't nothing to be sure, but I also don't think it's a massive hurdle either.

    That said, I think the elixir should remain in the base game, and those that don't want it, can mod it out.
    Day 125 if your not playing on below 100% XP modifier is late enough i'd expect the average loot quality has gone way up, it's also late enough you've had a long time to build that up. Where getting to the point now in our game where T5 loot is becoming semi common but that majority is still 3 or T4 and T6 is fairly rare whilst where still getting a modest amount of lower tier items. In addition our base setup has consumed a fair amount of scrapped items, (as has our own gear), upto this point. We probably will see a general uptick as things go forward in dukes income, (and thats no bad thing, we need the brass), but where also starting to push into what i would consider the endgame or even post endgame part of play where where maxing out our gear at last and looking to really get the defences steadily enhanced to truly silly levels.

    How you build your base will play a huge role for that matter. The more you abuse zombie pathing the less of everything you use., and the more time you have to make dukes even if your using non-exploitive methods. It's hard to say exactly how much forged iron, steel, electrical parts, and mechanical parts we've gone through, (not to mention brass, lead, ad gunpowder), but where probably pushing 5 figures on the forged iron and absolutely 4 figures on the rest of the non-ammo items. Gunpowder i know we've eaten through several tens of k of the stuff, with an appropriate amount of lead and brass. That kind of expenditure cuts sharply into your time spent looting salables or doing quests which hits you in the income big time.

    If your curious our current primary defence layer is composed of: 48 each of dart traps, electric fence posts, and tripwire posts. This is fed by 4 generators each using 4 engines with one timed and one standard electrical relay plus a switch. In addition we have 4 shotgun turrets in close to the walls, 4 SMG turrets covering the skies and 8 spotlights lighting the area between the main defensive layer and the walls proper. That might sound like a lot but it's split across 8 sub zones ringing the base in a square pattern so at any given point in a horde night a good chunk of it is sitting idle, (hence the tripwires for efficiency's sake).with probably around 1/4 of it fully active and another quarter getting odd stranglers at any given point in time. And that means the actual defensive density is pretty middling, (where on day 55 atm in case your wondering, both in low 60's levels).

  7. #37
    Colony Founder Ghostlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Bar View Post
    And your talking out of your arse about 30k dukes. I play with iamnuff so i know what our income looks like and 10k dukes in a single day is a big deal.
    Single day? Where did you get that from???? If you can't earn 30k dukes in the time it takes one player to get to Int 10 and take all the science, vehicle and engineering perks (which is level 34 at best), you are absolutely doing it wrong. That player can also take Better Barter to 5 while he's at it and do all the selling as well. Piece of cake.
    Last edited by Ghostlight; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:48 AM.

  8. #38
    Colony Founder Ghostlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Bar View Post
    How you build your base will play a huge role for that matter.
    Indeed. And to compare ours to yours. We use 28 Blade Traps and 3 generators and that's it. No abuse of zombie pathing whatsoever. No infinte ramps, no mazes. Just genius. Base murders gamestage 500 horde and we rarely have to fire a shot. Total repair bill each horde: a couple of Blade traps. You're right, it's all about clever base design.

    I'm starting to see why you guys have no money.

    Tiny Hint for you: Mods are really cheap to produce and don't sell for diddly squat, but placing mods into items you sell makes them considerably more valuable. I guess you're going to call that an exploit huh?
    Last edited by Ghostlight; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:57 AM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    Indeed. And to compare ours to yours. We use 28 Blade Traps and 3 generators and that's it. No abuse of zombie pathing whatsoever. No infinte ramps, no mazes. Just genius. Base murders gamestage 500 horde and we rarely have to fire a shot. Total repair bill each horde: a couple of Blade traps. You're right, it's all about clever base design.

    I'm starting to see why you guys have no money.

    Tiny Hint for you: Mods are really cheap to produce and don't sell for diddly squat, but placing mods into items you sell makes them considerably more valuable. I guess you're going to call that an exploit huh?

    Care to show me an image of said base, i was planning on grabbing some screenshots of ours if you asked.

  10. #40
    Colony Founder meganoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    Indeed. And to compare ours to yours. We use 28 Blade Traps and 3 generators and that's it. No abuse of zombie pathing whatsoever. No infinte ramps, no mazes. Just genius. Base murders gamestage 500 horde and we rarely have to fire a shot. Total repair bill each horde: a couple of Blade traps. You're right, it's all about clever base design.

    I'm starting to see why you guys have no money.

    Tiny Hint for you: Mods are really cheap to produce and don't sell for diddly squat, but placing mods into items you sell makes them considerably more valuable. I guess you're going to call that an exploit huh?
    I would call that a balancing bug, if a weapon with mods installed is considerably more valuable than the sum of its components. A small increase is acceptable (from a realism perspective) as you are getting paid for providing a complete service in a world where buying a weapon and enough fitting mods can't be guaranteed.

    By the way, I like your idea of making the forgettin elixier only remove a few points. Since a UI to specify which points would cost too much developer time though, it would have to be random points you forget.

  11. #41
    Colony Founder Ghostlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Bar View Post
    Care to show me an image of said base, i was planning on grabbing some screenshots of ours if you asked.
    I won't sorry. TFP would add zombie behaviour to stop it working. Yes. I'm paranoid.

  12. #42
    Colony Founder Brian9824's Avatar
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    Dukes are easy to get. You can get 30k a day quite easily. T5 quests reward 5-6k dukes just for the quest, let alone the rewards you can always sell for another 1-2. Once you know where 2-3 traders are you can easily do 7-8 of those a day. If you work in a group you can share them and get far more. We could easily get 100k a day with a group of 4 people if we wanted. I just tend to spend them as fast as i earn them buying all the perk books we see, ammo, materials, etc.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by meganoth View Post
    I would call that a balancing bug, if a weapon with mods installed is considerably more valuable than the sum of its components. A small increase is acceptable (from a realism perspective) as you are getting paid for providing a complete service in a world where buying a weapon and enough fitting mods can't be guaranteed.

    By the way, I like your idea of making the forgettin elixier only remove a few points. Since a UI to specify which points would cost too much developer time though, it would have to be random points you forget.
    This would be my thinking on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    I won't sorry. TFP would add zombie behaviour to stop it working. Yes. I'm paranoid.
    No offence but if your afraid to show it because you think the devs might change somthing that automatically makes it exploitive in my book. No design that isn't exploitive should have the slightest worry about the devs changing somthing because it should be so self evidently within how the devs intended the defensive items they provided to be used that there shouldn't be anything to worry about.

    My general rule of thumb is: "if the devs change anything about the zombie AI other than making them actively seek out and destroy defences or independent structures between your base and their spawn point will this still work". Because those two changes whilst theoretically possibble are IMO exceedingly unlikely as they would render most/all of the existing traps and other defensive items impossibble to use in any meaningful fashion.


    20191114135843_1.jpg

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    20191114135751_1.jpg

    Thats the layout where using, the dart traps whilst not visible are inside the bunkers behind the upper arrow slits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian9824 View Post
    Dukes are easy to get. You can get 30k a day quite easily. T5 quests reward 5-6k dukes just for the quest, let alone the rewards you can always sell for another 1-2. Once you know where 2-3 traders are you can easily do 7-8 of those a day. If you work in a group you can share them and get far more. We could easily get 100k a day with a group of 4 people if we wanted. I just tend to spend them as fast as i earn them buying all the perk books we see, ammo, materials, etc.
    You can make >Snip By OzHawkeye< claims all you want, it isn't going to make me believe you. There no way a single player is doing 7-8 quests of any Tier in a single day. let alone 7-8 T5's. The sheer size of the PoI for T5's just makes it impossible to do the that quickly. Hell even traveling between that many individual quests is probably pushing it rather hard. Never mind the pickup and dropoff time before/after. In theory i guess with a completely perfect set of circumstances where you do 7-8 pure fetch quests that all have quickly acessibble bags and are neatly clustered you might do it, but thats not a remotely normal scenario.
    Last edited by OzHawkeye; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:28 PM.

  14. #44
    Community Moderator OzHawkeye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Bar View Post
    You can make claims all you want, it isn't going to make me believe you. There no way a single player is doing 7-8 quests of any Tier in a single day. let alone 7-8 T5's. The sheer size of the PoI for T5's just makes it impossible to do the that quickly. Hell even traveling between that many individual quests is probably pushing it rather hard. Never mind the pickup and dropoff time before/after. In theory i guess with a completely perfect set of circumstances where you do 7-8 pure fetch quests that all have quickly acessibble bags and are neatly clustered you might do it, but thats not a remotely normal scenario.
    Keep in mind Carl, he's talking about groups, sharing quests, and wasn't specifically talking about clear quests. A group could do that many fetch quests sharing the quests amongst each other, each collecting the full rewards for each quest.

  15. #45
    Ranger Orclover's Avatar
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    Sure it's possible. 3 hour days oughta do it. Assuming you have a size 4 city with 3 traders around its border.

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