Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 85

Thread: Main skills only impacting specific weapons is backwards

  1. #46
    Leader Aldranon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Somewhere in a universe near you.
    Posts
    6,488
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    This RPG has primary skill trees that provide benefits other than unlocking skills. You may not be interested in those benefits but they are there and can be utilized. There is not one step up in any of the attributes that's only purpose is to unlock the next tier of perks. They all have benefits beyond unlocking the perk levels. Why do you keep stating that their only function is to unlock a lock?

    The model you propose would make going deeper into the perks expensive for someone who was specializing in that attribute. The whole point is that once you breach the barrier you can go deeper cheaper in multiple perks within that attribute. You want to go outside your area of specialty and have it be cheaper for you by making it more expensive for those who specialize in that area.

    Also.....who only plays with one attribute? You can easily pick two and be just fine. Why would anyone only pick intelligence unless they were doing a personal challenge? Pairing intelligence with another attribute works just fine. In A19, when the non combat perks only have 3 ranks you'll be able to do well with 3 attributes according to Madmole.

    Perhaps drop the attributes entirely as they seem to have gone off the deep end anyway. (here me out please).

    You can have any number of categories of perks that are relevant to each other. (you don't need to have the same number of perks in each category):
    -Weapons
    -Crafting
    -Stealth
    Ect...

    -Each Category has any number of Discipline perks and possibly supporting Knowledge that can be dependent on each other in various ways.

    -Discipline is often the end results of stressful experience(s), the player can pick any Discipline (up to five times?).

    -Knowledge is usually beyond any LBD, so must be gained by finding books or other documents (up to five levels of knowledge?).

    -In the Weapons category for example, you can have a perk that depend on another like: "Sight Control" and "Head Shot". Sight Control is a Discipline and Head Shot is a Knowledge.

    -Head Shot depends on Sight Control to work. Head Shot being a knowledge of where exactly to hit a zombie in the head but would be useless without the discipline to do it.


    IMO, this makes more sense and is more in line with reality without being tedious.
    Last edited by Aldranon; 12-12-2019 at 05:48 AM. Reason: spelling

  2. #47
    Hunter
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    120
    Rep Power
    1
    What if you just did away with the whole idea of Attributes and made five skill trees:

    Exploration - Gives bonuses to looting. Contains skills that boost mobility, looting, stealth, trader interaction, teamwork, etc.
    Harvesting - Gives bonuses to block damage. Contains skills that focus on harvesting resources, farming, hunting, stamina use reduction, etc.
    Melee Combat - Gives bonuses to all melee damage. Contains skills that focus on melee combat and melee weapons.
    Ranged Combat - Gives bonuses to all ranged damage. Contains skills that focus on ranged combat and ranged weapons.
    Crafting - Gives bonuses to crafting speed. Contains skills that benefit construction, trap-making, item crafting, schematic unlocking, etc.

    The 'expectation' of this would be that any character choosing any two of these trees has a viable build. Exploration/Harvesting? You're rolling in materials, ammo, and schematics, and you can rely on stealth bonuses and trader quests to get you what you need. Crafting/Harvesting? The ultimate base-builder. Exploration/Ranged? Sniper. Melee/Ranged? Rambo. Any two of them forms a viable skillset, and you can do away with the whole 'attribute' system that seems to just confuse and annoy people.

  3. #48
    Reconstructionist
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    660
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by BobTheBard View Post
    What if you just did away with the whole idea of Attributes and made five skill trees:

    Exploration - Gives bonuses to looting. Contains skills that boost mobility, looting, stealth, trader interaction, teamwork, etc.
    Harvesting - Gives bonuses to block damage. Contains skills that focus on harvesting resources, farming, hunting, stamina use reduction, etc.
    Melee Combat - Gives bonuses to all melee damage. Contains skills that focus on melee combat and melee weapons.
    Ranged Combat - Gives bonuses to all ranged damage. Contains skills that focus on ranged combat and ranged weapons.
    Crafting - Gives bonuses to crafting speed. Contains skills that benefit construction, trap-making, item crafting, schematic unlocking, etc.

    The 'expectation' of this would be that any character choosing any two of these trees has a viable build. Exploration/Harvesting? You're rolling in materials, ammo, and schematics, and you can rely on stealth bonuses and trader quests to get you what you need. Crafting/Harvesting? The ultimate base-builder. Exploration/Ranged? Sniper. Melee/Ranged? Rambo. Any two of them forms a viable skillset, and you can do away with the whole 'attribute' system that seems to just confuse and annoy people.
    lol, I just posted pretty much this exact thing a couple of posts ago

  4. #49
    Leader Aldranon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Somewhere in a universe near you.
    Posts
    6,488
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by BobTheBard View Post
    What if you just did away with the whole idea of Attributes and made five skill trees:

    Exploration - Gives bonuses to looting. Contains skills that boost mobility, looting, stealth, trader interaction, teamwork, etc.
    Harvesting - Gives bonuses to block damage. Contains skills that focus on harvesting resources, farming, hunting, stamina use reduction, etc.
    Melee Combat - Gives bonuses to all melee damage. Contains skills that focus on melee combat and melee weapons.
    Ranged Combat - Gives bonuses to all ranged damage. Contains skills that focus on ranged combat and ranged weapons.
    Crafting - Gives bonuses to crafting speed. Contains skills that benefit construction, trap-making, item crafting, schematic unlocking, etc.

    The 'expectation' of this would be that any character choosing any two of these trees has a viable build. Exploration/Harvesting? You're rolling in materials, ammo, and schematics, and you can rely on stealth bonuses and trader quests to get you what you need. Crafting/Harvesting? The ultimate base-builder. Exploration/Ranged? Sniper. Melee/Ranged? Rambo. Any two of them forms a viable skillset, and you can do away with the whole 'attribute' system that seems to just confuse and annoy people.
    This is a better way than what is currently being done. It gives the player logical choices as well as allowing for ether focused play-style for MP or a more general one for SP.

    Allowing for books and other documents to supplement the perks would make it a solid game system.

  5. #50
    Colony Founder Katitof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,169
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Liesel Weppen View Post
    You obviously don't get what i am saying. But i already told it dozens of times here in the forum and i'm getting tired of repeating it again and again and the answers still make me ask myself if people even read my posts or just didn't understand what i was saying.

    The base skills perception, strength, fortitude, ... should give genereic buffs usefull for everybody independently on what item he is using, wants to use or prefers to use over whatever. Buffing specific items should be limited to perks for this specific item (like dead eye, machine gunner, boomstick, ...).

    And i don't talk about min maxing at all. If i invest a skillpoint i want this skillpoint to have an effect for me and my playstyle. My playstyle decides what i like to skill, not the skills dictate my playstyle, but the current system does. It does not "force" me, but if i want to be skill-efficient it puts me into specific directions.
    I'd never invest a skillpoint into boomstick if i'm not even using shotguns. But i need to invest skillpoints into strength because other perks (and not only shotgun perks!!!!) have this as prerequisit, no matter if i WANT to use shotguns or not.
    Would you prefer if the stats themseles provided absolutely nothing other then a point sink instead, so you wouldn't feel like you're "wasting" points on "improving weapons" you don't use?

    You're angry, because you can't min-max every single point, there really isn't any more to it here from what you've said so far.

  6. #51
    Reconstructionist
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    587
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Katitof View Post
    Would you prefer if the stats themseles provided absolutely nothing other then a point sink instead, so you wouldn't feel like you're "wasting" points on "improving weapons" you don't use?
    Yes, because then it wouldn't push me to use weapons i don't like. It is a stupid skillpoint sink already anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katitof View Post
    You're angry, because you can't min-max every single point, there really isn't any more to it here from what you've said so far.
    You already prooved multiple times in this thread that you either don't read my post or simply don't understand them. I'm not repeating myself the fith time.

  7. #52
    Colony Founder Ghostlight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    1,663
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Katitof View Post
    Would you prefer if the stats themseles provided absolutely nothing other then a point sink instead, so you wouldn't feel like you're "wasting" points on "improving weapons" you don't use?
    I look at the other way round. If I perk into an attribute because I want to max out a non-combat perk, and I am not interested in using the weapon type associated with that attribute, then the attribute points did in fact provide absolutely nothing other than a point sink. Bad system is bad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katitof View Post
    You're angry, because you can't min-max every single point, there really isn't any more to it here from what you've said so far.
    Not sure about min-maxing as such but do you really think that having 17 of the precious points you spend give you no benefit whatsoever and in fact be only a point sink (your words) is good design?

  8. #53
    Refugee
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    29
    Rep Power
    0
    I still think they should put more universial benefits in the attributes, as some of you here already stated. They should have kept the ranged weapon damage in perception, melee and block damage in strength, health in fortitude, stamina in agility and crafting speed in intellect, as they used in alpha 17.

    Just some rebalancing to adapt to alpha 18:
    Give only +5 instead of +10 health/stamina with fortitude/agility, since we get those when leveling up now as well.
    And i guess intellect should no longer increase crafting quality on everything. (even though i kinda miss that.)

  9. #54
    Survivor
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    62
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    So you're not playing an intelligence build. The intelligence perks are outside your class so to speak. In most other RPGs you would be blocked from taking Better Barter in the first place. It would be greyed out. At least in this game if you choose to spend the extra points you can reach into any other tree and take what you want. It should be expensive to do so. It IS expensive to do so.
    In most other RPGs with his intelligence build, he would roast the enemies with blizzards and fireballs and cast a spell on him to improve his loot chance/runspeed/miningspeed.

  10. #55
    Colony Founder Katitof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,169
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    Not sure about min-maxing as such but do you really think that having 17 of the precious points you spend give you no benefit whatsoever and in fact be only a point sink (your words) is good design?
    If they don't do anything for you, its by your own choice.
    Also, that design is pretty common, usually employed in increasing cost of purchasing perks/skills.

    Would it really be so much better if you've had to pay increasing costs for perks, so rank 5 of a perk cost 3-6 points instead?

    Exponential progression curves are extremely common and since leveling itself can't be made impossibly long, you have increasing costs the deeper you go into tree.

    That being said, there really isn't anything that forces you into any specific tree anymore. You need int to craft something? So do it and then respecc back into whatever you want.

    If trader and quest related perks are that valuable to you, well, live with the cost of them.

    Remember that we're still going to get some perks reduced from 5 to 3 ranks, so you'll have even more points to spend around soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liesel Weppen View Post
    Yes, because then it wouldn't push me to use weapons i don't like. It is a stupid skillpoint sink already anyway.
    Well, too bad for you, that's how the system works now and according to MM, its final.

  11. #56
    Colon Pounder The Gronk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Well, actually...
    Posts
    3,301
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    I look at the other way round. If I perk into an attribute because I want to max out a non-combat perk, and I am not interested in using the weapon type associated with that attribute, then the attribute points did in fact provide absolutely nothing other than a point sink. Bad system is bad.
    I can't help but agree with this.

    I'm running an int/str character with a fully trapped base and nearby mines. Early on I found a very decent assault rifle and a few of the machine gun perks. Unfortunately I'm reluctant to put points into automatic weapons because I'd have to put points into a stat for the sole purpose of increasing the weapon perks, which does seem a bit of a waste.

    Which int based character would use anything other than an assault rifle? With a decent ability over quite a broad set of ranges there's a very good reason that an assault rifle is the standard armament for a soldier in the field.

  12. #57
    Reconstructionist
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    587
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Katitof View Post
    Well, too bad for you, that's how the system works now and according to MM, its final.
    The problem is not the system, but what buffs the base skills give. I've never read that the exactly skills are finally and will not change anymore. The "system" doesn't need to be changed anyway.

    But as we can see AGAIN, you still have not understood what we are talking about.

  13. #58
    Nomad hotpoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    383
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Are you saying that you would never consider playing the game by choosing Agility and seeing how well you do? Are you always and forever going to choose strength because those perks are predominately the way you like to play? If so, that is certainly your choice but the developers are supporting a variety of playstyles that everyone can try out by making a different choice the next time they decide to start over. If your plan is to just play this game once and then move on to new experiences or if your plan is to play maybe 5-10 complete games but always stick to the same exact attribute tree then I agree that the game is limiting and you won't be able to experience it all. But if you choose to play it through 5+ times and decide to mix up the attribute trees in different ways each time then the current system is great and allows for a different feel every time you play.
    I doesn't feel like they are supporting different play styles - they are pushing a few seemingly arbitrary play styles that don't really exist naturally.

    From observing arguments in the forum, we know what the real play styles are - the minecrafters (people who like to mine and build and not bother with survival), people who like to go out adventuring and looting, people who prefer to shoot shoot shoot and pvp. Those are the real play styles. So if there are skill trees, wouldn't it be better if they were divided up into the type of game play that actually occurs, and not lock specific weapons arbitrarily to those play styles? ...because we all need different weapons for different situations.

    If I'm quietly looting, I might favour the crossbow. If it's horde night, I'm probably going with guns and junk turrets. If it's a day horde, then out comes my spear or club. There are certain weapons I will never use (the knife, the stun baton, etc), so when my attribute points are benefiting those weapons, it feels like a waste.

    In my opinion, a simple fix without too much fiddling with the perk system would be to just remove weapon benefits from the attributes and have it's own level up section. I personally like Ghostlight's LBD for weapons only idea, but it could easily be a separate perk panel.

  14. #59
    Ranger
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    326
    Rep Power
    1
    If you're going to look to RPGs to base your skill system on, you should also look at why they work for those type of games, and I don't think TFP have really done that.

    It's my understanding that 7Days is supposed to be primarily focused on the single player experience, so a lot of players won't have party members to cover other specializations. In a single player RPG, you tend to have AI companions that can do stuff like check traps, heal, front line tanking, ranged, etc. There's usually also a broad selection of skills/weapons per class, so you can be creative within the constraints of specialization.

    In 7Days, we have no AI teammates to fill in the gaps in your own abilities, and when you "specialize", you're essentially being limited to using two weapons if you want to enjoy their specialist perks. Or you can waste precious skill points on boosting a stat that you won't otherwise use.

    Like others suggested, grouping perks together in themed skill trees, and allowing the player to mix and match skills from different trees more freely, would allow for more creativity in perk selection (without having to hamstring yourself by sinking skill points into stuff that you really don't use).

    A game like Dying Light does this pretty well, imho. Skyrim did away with attributes and just gave us several skill trees to mix and match with; Fallout games have attributes, but they have their own point pool and the perks themselves are way more interesting and game changing than increasing some hidden percentage.

    I'm not one of the people yearning for the return of LBD, but in my experience, A17 & A18 don't really invite me to play around with the perks. Some of them are so clearly more game changing and useful than others that I always feel like making bad strategic choices if I pick them.

  15. #60
    Community Moderator meganoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    3,259
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by BobTheBard View Post
    What if you just did away with the whole idea of Attributes and made five skill trees:

    Exploration - Gives bonuses to looting. Contains skills that boost mobility, looting, stealth, trader interaction, teamwork, etc.
    Harvesting - Gives bonuses to block damage. Contains skills that focus on harvesting resources, farming, hunting, stamina use reduction, etc.
    Melee Combat - Gives bonuses to all melee damage. Contains skills that focus on melee combat and melee weapons.
    Ranged Combat - Gives bonuses to all ranged damage. Contains skills that focus on ranged combat and ranged weapons.
    Crafting - Gives bonuses to crafting speed. Contains skills that benefit construction, trap-making, item crafting, schematic unlocking, etc.

    The 'expectation' of this would be that any character choosing any two of these trees has a viable build. Exploration/Harvesting? You're rolling in materials, ammo, and schematics, and you can rely on stealth bonuses and trader quests to get you what you need. Crafting/Harvesting? The ultimate base-builder. Exploration/Ranged? Sniper. Melee/Ranged? Rambo. Any two of them forms a viable skillset, and you can do away with the whole 'attribute' system that seems to just confuse and annoy people.
    So how does the Exploration/Ranged sniper live through horde night or how does he build a base? How does the miner or crafter combat zombies? He needs ranged and probably melee too. At least in single player your new system will just make everyone who plays the whole game invest in all trees somewhat. Nothing gained really.

    But I don't even want to argue about all those new proposed redesigns. Read the writings on the wall: There will be no totally new system. Only smaller corrections now have a chance in vanilla. Make a mod if you want something else, Kalen at least got the right idea.

    I actually like dex314 idea: Add small non-combat benefits to attributes.

    They have to be really small so the player doesn't think he needs the attribute for its boni or make any perks irrelevant. The benefits can then be mirroring already existing perks, just to a lesser degree.

    For example one point in the perception attribute would give 1/5th of one lucky-looter-perk and lucky-looter would be decreased to a level-3 perk (this would tie in perfectly with MMs planned perk-reductions). Fully perked you would have exactly the same bonus, but now you get some of the LL-benefit with the attribute.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •