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Thread: With Steam refunds now available why make early game such a.....

  1. #1
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    With Steam refunds now available why make early game such a.....

    Royal PITA???

    It's not harder (if you know what you are doing)...it's just so monotonous now.

    Spawn and do the usual:
    Gather; stones, sticks, fibers.
    Make; stone axe, arrows, bow.

    Get started looting, looking for area to get established...

    First encounter with zombies (about 15 of them).
    Standard no frills zombie: Aim at head, hit. Darn it. Again, hit. Ugh!! Again, hit zombie dead.
    Second not frills zombie: Aim at head, hit. WTF!!! Again, hit. OMG!! Again, hit zombie dead. Surely not!
    Third one: same result. Hmm I see what they did here. Nerfed bow or SOMETHING but whhhyyy???

    6 zombies down and I'm out of arrows and out of feathers so now I have to head away from the buildings I was clearing the zombies from to get more arrows. 10 mins later I have enough to build another 30 arrows.

    Go back.
    Aim at head of one of the zombies.

    Bow is broken ....after shooting about FORTY arrows.

    Esc
    Quit

    Wait for next update.

    If I was a new player/customer that would be enough to qualify for a Steam refund.
    There's 2 trillion games on Steam all going for chicken feed and now with the refund policy people arent going to hesitate to refund something that isnt enjoyable and early game now isnt enjoyable.
    It's got all the usual challenges and difficulties still there but now with (what I feel) is an un-necessary layer of monotony added to it.

    Having said that, this is the only thing I've ever back on kickstarter and I have really enjoyed seeing it evolve. I remember the first build I couldnt even climb up a ladder with the entire structure falling down.

    I havent tried out any more of the A12 to comment, but early game is a complete pain now so.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    I'd just like to point out bow wasn't nerfed, but fixed.

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    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    A brand new player wouldn't necessarily expect three shots with a day 1 weapon of faulty quality to be out of the ordinary. You hate it because you got used to the OP bow we had before.

    Also not everyone rage quits like you do. Some will turn the difficulty down and others will try other tactics. Finally, scavenging for arrow parts is not as monotonous to new players as it is for us. I've been gathering feathers for almost 800 hours now so it's not my favorite activity but I used to like it just fine

  4. #4
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    I started to dislike the game due to the harder difficulty for the first few days but now after getting a little start I find it more rewarding now than in a11. A11 was way too easy to get a start due to the op bow. Now it is a challenge to survive which is the point of the game.

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    Honestly I don't find it all that bad. Keeping in mind that I pretty much just started this game, I only had one proper run in A11 before the update and it is definitely a lot harder now, but even so I don't find it that difficult. The bow is pretty weak and we no longer seem to stun/interrupt zombie attacks (potentially due to the weakness of the starter weapons? Just guessing as to why this is based on the changelog) but even so I was able to take over two POI by mid day 2 with a bad bow and a club, it just took a bit longer, a bit more of my health and a lot more careful movement. In fact my first death of A12 wasn't from the dozens of zombies I fought, the two dogs that had found me nor the bear wandering around my base, but instead because I forgot that trees now fall and kill things.

    That being said, there is supposedly a patch coming that will tweak arrow damage a bit, presumably making it more effective, and I do think that the game could use some better difficulty scaling to make the easy difficulties friendly to the people that want a much more casual game. Granted maybe they do that already, I've only been playing on the medium difficulty so far, I just assume it's not quite "casual friendly" even on easy based on what others have said.

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    I wouldnt say the bow was OP before.
    You could headshot the weaker zombies and kill them in one hit, a body ♥♥♥♥ would generally take more than one shot. Tougher zombies could take a LOT more shots.

    What do we have now? You come across an area you want to explore and use all your resources to barely clear the zombies and have to run back out into the wilderness to find more.

    Whatever...you enjoy it. I dont. Cant cater to everyone but can you actually say you thought it sucked before?

    And to the person above ...thats right it's not "difficult" one bit. It's tedious.

    To the other person who said scavenging for arrow parts wont be tedious for a new player like the existing player base.
    Well trust me it will get VERY monotonous for them eventually.

    You need to add more content to end game and make it worthwhile getting there. Not add less and make people take longer/grind to get there.

    It basically took me 30 mins to achieve nothing whereas A11 I would have been getting somewhere.

    /waaah
    Last edited by gerg; 07-05-2015 at 04:54 AM.

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    they removed the one thing that made this not so monotonous, the 1x1 crawling. it mixed the game up and changed how you played early on to later. seems to me like they are keeping all the fun to themselves and pimping monotony

  8. #8
    Scavenger SirBlackThorne's Avatar
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    Maybe it's just me but I find that having a really weak starting bow makes things a lot more fun in the sense that you can no longer clear an entire town on day 1 with a starter weapon. You have to choose your fights more carefully and learn when to run and when to fight instead of the old super Rambo with a bow and unlimited arrows. I can't claim to be a super good player nor can I boast an impressive computer and yet A11 wasn't boring but presented no early game challenge other than the dogs you might find. Now you have a good challenge in the fact that a single zombie can be quite dangerous, which I think is a really good thing.

    The only real problem's I have found with this update are the bugs, high amount of bears and seemingly endless rain in the forest biome. All of these problemís Iím confident will be fixed in due time and make things more enjoyable for those who actually wish for a challenge instead of having everything handed to them on a silver platter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    A brand new player wouldn't necessarily expect three shots with a day 1 weapon of faulty quality to be out of the ordinary. You hate it because you got used to the OP bow we had before.

    Also not everyone rage quits like you do. Some will turn the difficulty down and others will try other tactics. Finally, scavenging for arrow parts is not as monotonous to new players as it is for us. I've been gathering feathers for almost 800 hours now so it's not my favorite activity but I used to like it just fine
    Turning the difficulty down is not the solution and I don't have a problem with a hard game, I am looking at the game design not a playthrough. Lowering the difficulty simply makes the day 1 crunch less painful and shortens the playability of the game even more. Their problem is they have reversed the typical difficulty curve. Its now really hard to start and tedious boring and down hill from day 1 and on. That is not a game that is an invitation to quit. The game should start out easy and ramp up to impossible. Day 1 zombies should take only a few strikes to kill, be slightly less populated and as the character levels OR as the days pass the zombies gain more strength and abilities. Instead they have created this 1 template of damage and power from zombies and leveled the tools as well as the player with useless stats.

    Example: Day 1 level 1 level 1 club should kill a zombie in 1-3 strikes. Day 2 level 2 player level 1 club should kill a zombie in 2-4 strikes and drive them to find or craft a stronger weapon that does more damage. Instead what is happening is the zombies don't change in strength and after you luckily find 1 amazing item the zombies now die in 1-3 strikes all the time and it becomes a game of ammo vs numbers and clicking E to find more lucky advanced items. Crafting is optional at this point. They added two different systems that contradict each other. And they haven't leveled the zeds to match the equipment at all.

    Its a critical design flaw and I see people fanboi'ing hard here and its frustrating to get them to see the true problem here. I want a hard game but I also want a successful and entertaining/replayable game. They aren't making that, they are just randomly adding features and dancing away from the core game concept as if they have no direction at all or a clue how to actually make a GAME. They remind me of an inexperienced modder team in any other major game company forum now going this long with a backwards design and no stick/carrot system in play. 12 builds no carrot wtf. Minibike is not a carrot thats just fluff. No victory, hell surviving the zombies isn't the challenge, surviving the tedious gameplay is and continuing to play this game instead of any other real finished game is.
    Last edited by Motoko; 07-05-2015 at 05:57 AM.

  10. #10
    Leader Fox's Avatar
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    I agree in that the game hasn't really ever been difficult since Alpha 2 and older, but they're still working on it. Give them a chance to finish it first. Hopefully someday they'll work on the AI to be more intelligent and strategic in their manor which would allow them to be more sneaky or attack more important things together as one unit rather than random attacks on random things... and hopefully they'll eventually be able to climb over windows and crouch down under things...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I agree in that the game hasn't really ever been difficult since Alpha 2 and older, but they're still working on it. Give them a chance to finish it first. Hopefully someday they'll work on the AI to be more intelligent and strategic in their manor which would allow them to be more sneaky or attack more important things together as one unit rather than random attacks on random things... and hopefully they'll eventually be able to climb over windows and crouch down under things...
    I'm sick of the same excuse.

  12. #12
    Leader Fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motoko View Post
    I'm sick of the same excuse.
    Then stop buying into Alpha based games.

    It's your own fault, not the dev's fault.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motoko View Post
    Their problem is they have reversed the typical difficulty curve. Its now really hard to start and tedious boring and down hill from day 1 and on. That is not a game that is an invitation to quit. The game should start out easy and ramp up to impossible. Day 1 zombies should take only a few strikes to kill, be slightly less populated and as the character levels OR as the days pass the zombies gain more strength and abilities. Instead they have created this 1 template of damage and power from zombies and leveled the tools as well as the player with useless stats.
    1) Inverted difficulty curve is standard for this genre. Perhaps you just are not a fan of the survival genre. Survival games always start out with seemingly impossible odds stacked against you and as you progress life gets easier and you go from barely surviving, to living crudely, to thriving. That is just the way these types of games play and while there definitely can be some late game goals and challenges to give the player something to go for these things are side quests to the main quest of survival. In real life situations if you can survive the first three days chances are you going to make it and the game is a reflection of that. You don't like it but I love it as do a lot of people who understand that new genres of games means new molds that don't have to follow traditional game play formulas.

    2) The leveled tools and useless stats from experience are just the first iteration. "Development" means things are done in stages and not created in their final state in an instant. BTW, there are just as many people who hate the idea of a world that levels up with the player as there are people like you who love that idea. It is not a sign of bad design it is just you trying to pound your square preference peg into the round hole that is this type of game.

    Example: Day 1 level 1 level 1 club should kill a zombie in 1-3 strikes. Day 2 level 2 player level 1 club should kill a zombie in 2-4 strikes and drive them to find or craft a stronger weapon that does more damage. Instead what is happening is the zombies don't change in strength and after you luckily find 1 amazing item the zombies now die in 1-3 strikes all the time and it becomes a game of ammo vs numbers and clicking E to find more lucky advanced items. Crafting is optional at this point. They added two different systems that contradict each other. And they haven't leveled the zeds to match the equipment at all.
    Luckily finding an amazing weapon is going to be a lot rarer now. This is why they changed the loot probabilities so that the two systems don't pre-empt each other so much. In my first few days the best quality I found was orange and I am getting close to being able to craft orange so after a couple more levels I will try crafting some of the tools I already have found to see if I can make a better one. In addition, having the two systems allows people to play in different ways. Some people just like to scavenge and are happy to find all their stuff while others enjoy harvesting resources and crafting their own stuff.


    Its a critical design flaw and I see people fanboi'ing hard here and its frustrating to get them to see the true problem here. I want a hard game but I also want a successful and entertaining/replayable game. They aren't making that, they are just randomly adding features and dancing away from the core game concept as if they have no direction at all or a clue how to actually make a GAME. They remind me of an inexperienced modder team in any other major game company forum now going this long with a backwards design and no stick/carrot system in play. 12 builds no carrot wtf. Minibike is not a carrot thats just fluff. No victory, hell surviving the zombies isn't the challenge, surviving the tedious gameplay is and continuing to play this game instead of any other real finished game is.
    I suppose anyone that disagrees with you is a fanboi in your mind. I'm sure that helps you maintain your own point of view without having to look at it too closely. Just scream down any dissenting view as fanboi'ism. Neat little mental trick you have constructed for yourself.

    The evidence: Many people have 500+ hours in this game with countless restarts and replays just to experience the first week of this game because of how wonderful the beginning is. This is not mindless fans flogging themselves with tedium just to maintain their rose colored glasses. These are people genuinely having fun with this game. Some go on to build or create other challenges for themselves once they have "won" the survival game and others simply start again and try new strategies and challenges for getting through that first week because it is that much fun.

    Obviously that's not you and that is fine. But your preferences don't dictate good or bad game design. They simply indicate what you like or dislike. Nothing is stopping you from going to other real finished games. This isn't one of those. It never claimed to be. But someday it will be and maybe after you've played a few more survival games and figure out that inverted game difficulty is something pretty standard for survival sandbox games you will either make your peace with it or stay away. Me? I can't stand Real Time Strategy games. So I stay away from all of them. Grey Goo was intriguing to me until I saw that it was RTS. That was a deal breaker. Is RTS poor game design? Nope. But I sure hate it...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    tldr
    The bone shiv is still yellow quality 100% of the time. Bows are not reparable. The chances of finding loot is still the same you are taking your own experience I've personally gotten amazing items, hell check out some of the lets plays if you wanna see your point disproved about lucky drops on day 1. They should have been building the system up instead of jumping around to things like a minibike , fancier trees/bushes and cut and pasted hubble telescope skies. The pathing system is identical to A11 bugs and all. I feel as though they wasted too much time on fluff and too little time on furthering the games creation along. And you are dead wrong on survival games being super hard to start. All games have a learn to play start. Your judgement is clouded by the goggles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Then stop buying into Alpha based games.

    It's your own fault, not the dev's fault.
    I didn't buy this game it was gifted to me as part of a group of friends and I'm the only one left out of 7 people still playing it on my friendslist. That should be alarming to you but your fanboi goggles won't let you see this as a bad thing. I only play it for the first day, then I dedicate a small amount of time to watching a few favorite lets plays on it then move on after saying the same point I've made in the last 3 builds in the forums. This game is being made wrong. Plain and simple.
    Last edited by Motoko; 07-05-2015 at 07:42 AM.

  15. #15
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motoko View Post
    The bone shiv is still yellow quality 100% of the time. Bows are not reparable. The chances of finding loot is still the same you are taking your own experience I've personally gotten amazing items, hell check out some of the lets plays if you wanna see your point disproved about lucky drops on day 1. They should have been building the system up instead of jumping around to things like a minibike , fancier trees/bushes and cut and pasted hubble telescope skies. The pathing system is identical to A11 bugs and all. I feel as though they wasted too much time on fluff and too little time on furthering the games creation along. And you are dead wrong on survival games being super hard to start. All games have a learn to play start. Your judgement is clouded by the goggles.
    The bone shiv isn't yellow quality....it has no quality and those items that have no quality have a goldenrod bar. They cannot be crafted or repaired. The bow used to be the same way as were a lot of the clothing. The chance for finding loot has been changed. It is not my own experience it is in the changelog and the xml. While the chance for awesome loot exists it is a lot less than before. I admit I am forgiving of bugs and have a positive outlook for the game and so maybe my judgement is clouded in that regard but at least I understand how the game works. Your statement that the bone shiv is still yellow quality 100% kind of puts a bit of a damper on your credibility as to your understanding of the game. The fact that you don't seem to understand how survival games work with inverted difficulty is another strike. Do a bit of research and figure the game out before you start leveling accusation because it makes you look a bit.....uninformed.

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