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Thread: Why is Instacraft soooo bad?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhiPhi View Post
    Ha ha, oh you mean Kraft timers?
    I like what you did there, sadly I did not think of the pun at the time:P

    I personally love that feeling of rising panic I get when trying to loot a car in the hub city while the horde moves in and not knowing whether to break off looting and run or wait a few seconds longer for the loot

  2. #62
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    Here's the thing that makes craft timers so cheese: I once watched a video from someone on how to craft your first day shelter. When I tried to replicate the shelter in the game I realised it wasn't practical because he had used insta craft timer settings. In game the amount of wood frames and other items required would simply take to long to craft on default or even fast timers so that you could not craft that base by the first night. So if the insta craft mechanic makes the game so much easier I can totally see why TFP don't feel it belongs in the default game. For those saying its just single player it shouldn't matter, well in single player games game balance is still a definite factor, devs want the default experience to be representative of the vision they have for the challenge of the game. If people want to mod it to be easier or go into creative that's up to them.

  3. #63
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    The funny thing is that craft timers are way less restrictive during the early game than they are in mid or late game when everything is already far, far less difficult.

    In the early game you are almost more limited by your resource gathering speed than your crafting speed. Even with the default timers and a short day/night cycle it is still easy to build an impenetrable (non-exploitive) wooden base well before day 7.

    There are people that take such issue with others use of the craft timers, yet do things like live underground where the zombies will never be able to reach them. Others build a forge and campfire room 1/2 km away from their base. Some people build their entire base on stilts surrounded hundreds of log spikes. Some build fall traps so all zombies die instantly. There are an unlimited number of ways to make the game more or less difficult, why so much focus on one aspect?

    No ones gameplay is beyond reproach. Someone can (and apparently always will) take issue with something you seem to overlook as inconsequential. Until someone proves that they are the A#1, 360 no scope, Alpha and Omega of 7DtD by posting all of their xmls, game settings and a list of all the things they will and will not do to circumvent game mechanics, maybe we should all just relax and enjoy the game.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morloc View Post
    I don't think that there's anyone actually calling for eliminating the option to turn off the timers. If there are, there can't be many such voices. There are more than a few complaining that there are people who want to take away their freedom. Braveheart says: ....no.



    -Morloc
    well mm said he would like to get rid of it. i am not just pissed cause ppl want it gone. devs think about removing it...

    and i donīt want it easier. not all the time. just when building big or when i am in a hurry. rebarframes for example are impossible to craft when you are outside. takes just too much inventory space. and needs constant refilling the resources. (when starting from iron ingot) no fun if you need rebarframes for a 3 story tower 30x30 with a big ass basement.
    Last edited by pApA^LeGBa; 07-17-2015 at 06:38 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morloc View Post
    Please forgive the double-post, but I was curious....

    How many of your folks who use fast or no craft timers would be OK with receiving partial or no experience from crafting when you have those settings enabled?
    Sure, I really don't care as I'm not into exploiting the system for XP. I use instant craft because I find inventory management and waiting around for stuff to get done (and when you are in your base crafting you will be waiting around, no matter how clever you think you are at planning ahead) a mind-numbingly tedious feature in most games, this one included. And I don't want to lug surplus materials around with me to craft stuff whilst I'm looting houses, because I want that precious space for actual loot. The way I see it, the game at this point gives you the choice of magical craft-as-you-go, and slightly more magical instant craft. None are realistic but one removes a whole lot of tedium to me, and I approve of that in my recreational pursuits.

    Of course that is my preference, and passing judgment on people who prefer a different playstyle would be presumptuous of me. A lesson that the hardcore "hurr hurr instacraft is baby mode" crowd would do well to learn.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by pApA^LeGBa View Post
    @Motoko believe it or not, there are ppl that like a mix of heavy building and the need to kill zeds. itīs just waiting. no further skill involved with the craft timer.
    There most certainly is some skill involved with the craft timer. I'm not saying anyone should care if someone else uses it but it does break a large portion of what makes the game difficult in the slightest. Weapons can break and with no timer you only need a second to craft a whole new one or repair in the middle of a fight, without even getting some distance first so low stamina would rarely be an issue. Running out of arrows mid fight is pretty much the same situation. Even when not in the middle of a fight, with timers on crafting up a big batch of arrows means you can't clear inventory till it's done by scrapping other stuff, so you can either stop the craft and maybe not have enough ammo in a few seconds when surprised by a horde, or wait till it's done to clear some room to loot more. Kill the timer and you can just do it all as fast as you can click. Loot timers also add a level of difficulty that is lost when they are disabled, letting you dart in around zombies and ignore them to quick loot.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morloc View Post
    I don't think that there's anyone actually calling for eliminating the option to turn off the timers. If there are, there can't be many such voices. There are more than a few complaining that there are people who want to take away their freedom. Braveheart says: ....no.

    What I do see are people being dismissive of those who aren't using timers and I see other people trying to defend their choice not to use them.

    I'm in the camp of those who believe that people who don't use the full timers are playing the game in an easier mode. Let me be clear, nothing you say is going to convince me otherwise. I've already presented the argument of why it's easier. It's really not disputable unless you're the sort who'll aggressively debate the color of the sky. There's no logical football on the issue....a "less difficult" play-style is not the same as a merely "different" one. I don't care why you need to play this way, or why you want to play this way, and for God's sake, I'm not trying to prevent anyone from playing this way...but you'll never gain acceptance with the idea that you're merely "avoiding tedium" rather than pressing an Easy button...

    ...and that's pretty much it.

    -Morloc
    EXACTLY, the timers are a difficulty setting. No reason to get rid of it, choices are good, and having several ways to affect difficulty in different areas is a good thing for the game. Maybe they just need to rework the options screen a tad, and make a "Difficulty" section with timers, zombie spawns, loot frequency, hours of daylight, etc...

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morloc View Post
    Please forgive the double-post, but I was curious....

    How many of your folks who use fast or no craft timers would be OK with receiving partial or no experience from crafting when you have those settings enabled?


    -Morloc
    Sounds great to me, though then it's less of a difficulty setting and more of a gameplay decision. It still affects difficulty, especially in the case of broken weapons or running out of arrows in or right before combat. It wouldn't have nearly as drastic an effect on overall game difficulty if it also affected how much craft xp you got, if any.

    If TFP really wants to balance the game around full craft timers, and wants people to choose to use them voluntarily this could do it. Maybe even make it like no craft timers only gives first craft xp, fast timers gives normal xp, and normal timers gives normal xp and a small (1% or so) chance of any craft not using resources. Or even leave the xp and make it like no timers has a 5% per item chance to fail craft and use materials for no item on any batch over 10 or so, fast timers 2% chance of same, and full timers is just no fail normal crafting. If you are putting failure rates though it would need to have a batch size limit, so any gun crafts or things you barely managed to get the resources for so can't craft much of anyway is still safe.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhiPhi View Post
    Ha ha, oh you mean Kraft timers?

    Seriously it's a bad mechanism and not really representative of what's supposed to be happening, somehow you can craft anything and still run around and gather materials, build or fight zombies. I keep banging on my drum to change this system to a rolling 24 game hour crafting limit dependent on player level/skill, that mechanism could be implemented in a number of ways and make the player make some priority based decisions without waiting around for some crude time sink to countdown.

    It solves the problem of levelling through deforestation and stick crafting, it puts pressure on the player to be more creative with what they craft at what stage of the game and is naturally progressive matching the players development.
    I think the timers themselves are a good mechanism, the only thing in the way of that is being able to do other things while it runs. If I see I'm running low on arrows but am carrying all I need to make them then I should be able to stop and craft more. While doing that if a zombie sees me or I hear something I want to investigate, then closing the inventory screen to do so should pause the craft. It's still there, still queued up, it just won't run till I bring up inventory again to finish it. If they changed this though then crafting would have to NOT pull items from inventory before actually making an item from them as well, to prevent people starting a huge craft with lots of components to free inventory slots and just not opening inventory again till they drop some stuff off. They could make a small box that shows in a corner of the screen listing whatever is currently crafting and how long it needs to finish so you don't forget you have to find a safe spot for however long and let it complete.

    Edit: Eventually they should also scale craft timers with the day length setting. If you are running 30 minute days it makes no sense to still take several minutes of real time to craft a stack of something when someone on 120 minute days is spending so much less of the game day to craft the same thing with the same timer settings.

    Edit 2: It also occurs to me that boredom for the player becomes a factor with this mechanic. My suggestion there is that you should be able to sort inventory while it runs, just not close the screen and move around or interact with the world. You should also be able to pull up the map and browse it all you want while the craft still runs. Have it display the little box with the craft and time left I mentioned above, but if you are on the map screen the timer actually counts down. If not in inventory or map it doesn't.
    Last edited by b0rgerking; 07-17-2015 at 09:07 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhiPhi View Post
    Ha ha, oh you mean Kraft timers?

    Seriously it's a bad mechanism and not really representative of what's supposed to be happening, somehow you can craft anything and still run around and gather materials, build or fight zombies. I keep banging on my drum to change this system to a rolling 24 game hour crafting limit dependent on player level/skill, that mechanism could be implemented in a number of ways and make the player make some priority based decisions without waiting around for some crude time sink to countdown.

    It solves the problem of levelling through deforestation and stick crafting, it puts pressure on the player to be more creative with what they craft at what stage of the game and is naturally progressive matching the players development.

    But would that not make game more rigid and less dynamic? Please correct me if I realized this all wrong.

    Let's say at level 10 you have 1000 crafting units/points to use per 24 h cycle. Maybe doing different things cost different number of units so arrows would be cheap and steel expensive.

    But because you don't know what will happen during the and how the situation will change what will happens players start to safe up their crafting units until the last part of the day.

    Otherwise they could use all their points during morning and then only twiddle one's thumbs during rest of the day because they don't have necessary units to do anything before new 24/h cycle.

    That would also mean that you would not be able to use this 6th day to build things because you can only build so much what your skill level allows. Then you would be forced to do something else because you can craft no more before limit resets.

    Or does the game give you your points kinda like replenishing crafting mana resource? Higher the level it fills faster and pool is bigger?

    Wouldn't that just make players wait when they have enough "crafting mana" to make one more wooden frame? In that case you would change this current waiting crafting timers to waiting crafting units to accumulate.

    Same effect would be achieved by making crafting timers we already have to go X % faster every time you level up and start from very slow.

    Was this anything what you meant?


    But what is most likely to happen TFP already have some kind on skill mechanics in mind and crafting system will be changing probably dramatically during upcoming alphas when different skill trees come into the play.


    e: Is some mechanic real or not (like running and crafting same time) is somewhat moot point because there will always be some kind of abstraction and pick and choose what game elements are more "realistic" than others. I think we all are hypocrites like that. I personally love realism when it makes game more fun. It also makes certain mechanics easier to learn and predict because they behave realistically. Like physics.

    We like that we can crush incoming zombies under a falling tree but do not like that with crude tools felling just a one tree would take us better part of the day or more. So we keep crushy trees but make the felling part more unrealistic but bearable.

    Same happens with pocket crafting and carrying better part of forest in your bag. It's not realistic at all but it's way more fun than some realistic option. Or otherwise the whole mechanic had to be way different.

    Naturally I'm all for it if that can be made better even if it works totally different than this current system. What is better system is the hard part.
    Last edited by rosenholz; 07-17-2015 at 09:10 AM. Reason: added stuff

  11. #71
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    With as many times as I've seen the 'ran out of arrows / broken weapon while fighting zombies' scenario mentioned, I'm beginning to wonder how you guys prepare for the next day in real life.

  12. #72
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    I couldn't care less about exp from crafting really, any decent zombie hunter has 2000+ kills anyways late game. Just give me back my instacraft! My fabulous base awaits

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rgerking View Post
    I think the timers themselves are a good mechanism, the only thing in the way of that is being able to do other things while it runs. If I see I'm running low on arrows but am carrying all I need to make them then I should be able to stop and craft more. While doing that if a zombie sees me or I hear something I want to investigate, then closing the inventory screen to do so should pause the craft. It's still there, still queued up, it just won't run till I bring up inventory again to finish it. If they changed this though then crafting would have to NOT pull items from inventory before actually making an item from them as well, to prevent people starting a huge craft with lots of components to free inventory slots and just not opening inventory again till they drop some stuff off. They could make a small box that shows in a corner of the screen listing whatever is currently crafting and how long it needs to finish so you don't forget you have to find a safe spot for however long and let it complete.

    Edit: Eventually they should also scale craft timers with the day length setting. If you are running 30 minute days it makes no sense to still take several minutes of real time to craft a stack of something when someone on 120 minute days is spending so much less of the game day to craft the same thing with the same timer settings.

    Edit 2: It also occurs to me that boredom for the player becomes a factor with this mechanic. My suggestion there is that you should be able to sort inventory while it runs, just not close the screen and move around or interact with the world. You should also be able to pull up the map and browse it all you want while the craft still runs. Have it display the little box with the craft and time left I mentioned above, but if you are on the map screen the timer actually counts down. If not in inventory or map it doesn't.
    I am with you, the timers aren't bad it is just that the more experience you have managing them the less impact they have on your gameplay since you can queue up whatever you want and go about your business without issue. One way to help get around this would be make the recipes more granular.

    For instance, instead of just needing planks to craft wooden frames you could require wooden dowels, nails or a tool to make freaking dovetail joints. Making stone arrows could require a tool for shaping the arrowheads. If more and more recipes had this granularity carrying the tools required to make whatever you want on a whim would be prohibited by inventory space and the crafting timers would have more meaning without requiring you to stare at them.

    Another possible solution would be to tie certain crafting recipes to workbenches so you can't access them while you are out in the world. This would require some balancing so people don't just have 10+ crafting stations pumping out countless items putting Henry Ford to shame.

    However, I doubt the base game would be a good place for these changes. I don't really see them being that well received. The good part is that one or a combination of these solutions would be easy enough to implement just by modifying the xmls.

    Just to add: Now that we can use the context menus to scrap items and we no longer need to place items in the grid the first time for it to auto load materials, it might be a good idea to prohibit the players from being able to put items in the crafting grid manually and use it as a second backpack.
    Last edited by Curmudgeon; 07-17-2015 at 10:15 AM.

  14. #74
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    A better system to use would be that of Daggerfall.
    Its an old game but gave you a +% bonus everytime you performed a particular action.

    How crafting thousands of sticks enables a player to craft a purple item is beyond me or how killing a thousand zombies enable a player to do the same.

    If you want a purple item, you need to practice, practice, practice.
    Because practice makes perfect.

    If craft timers are going to stay an option, I am fine with that. I have just started to use timers and still enjoying the game.
    But if the insta craft is going to be removed, does that mean loot respawns will be too?

  15. #75
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    personally I consider instacraft cheating not because it saves time but because it allows you do do things you normally couldn't

    eg, corner no ammo? intantly make some.

    Defense collapsed? insta craft new wall blocks ready to place immediately despite the zombies rushing at you.


    I wouldnt be opposed to something like a workbench tho that speeds up crafting when your near it
    Last edited by Ravenclaw; 07-17-2015 at 12:02 PM.

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