Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 48

Thread: Base Defense meta

  1. #16
    Colony Founder Glimpse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    The Temple of the Great Sham 2017
    Posts
    1,735
    Rep Power
    1
    My last horde night cost 40 steel to repair all the over the top passive defense stopping might of the zombie horde, and the 3000 wood I put in spikes on top of the base, and the 10 or so bolts I used ( I don't touch guns in this game).

    Walls took no damage at all.

    Maybe I'm playing wrong?

  2. #17
    Refugee
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Crater Creator View Post
    I see mixed messages here. How can one voice concerns about balance if they can't legitimately say crap about balance?

    Lightfoot: I think you misjudge the trajectory of the game in some ways. It's not at all about making the zombies win in every situation but one. It's about making the zombies as engaging, challenging, and balanced when you use a raised platform or an underground base as when you use a "normal" defense strategy. The game is 7 Days to Die: it should require some day's worth of effort to survive each week, with no 'get-out-of-zombies-free' strategy that thwarts them outright. Raised platforms and underground bases aren't just more effective strategies. They're foolproof, and that indicates the game is broken.

    Some of your ideas, like a spear weapon that in particular goes through iron bars, could improve the level of engagement without being a 'nerf' when viewed in terms of its black-and-white effect on difficulty. I'm completely in favor of that!
    I see what you're saying. With underground bases though I've had zombies punch their way in, and with raised platforms you can't kill zombies if you don't have spikes below you or enough weaponry, not to mention spitting zombies and the bugs. I'm all for active defenses but guns and ammo are so rare and hard to find they are basically 'bonuses prizes' you can never count on actually having. I guess I hate that so much in the game is left to chance and I hate how the game handicaps you in strange ways. Placing a row of outward-facing wooden stakes along your walls should be the easiest low-rent strategy for keeping zeds away. Yet the game makes this out to be like some of kind of engineering marvel, far beyond the capabilities of someone who can somehow make a handmade bow from grass.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimpse View Post
    My last horde night cost 40 steel to repair all the over the top passive defense stopping might of the zombie horde, and the 3000 wood I put in spikes on top of the base, and the 10 or so bolts I used ( I don't touch guns in this game).

    Walls took no damage at all.

    Maybe I'm playing wrong?
    40 steel and 3000 wood doesn't seem like a lot of resources to you? That's a lot of harvesting and smelting (which attracts more hordes) to burn in one night.

  3. #18
    Colony Founder Glimpse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    The Temple of the Great Sham 2017
    Posts
    1,735
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by FelixLightfoot View Post
    40 steel and 3000 wood doesn't seem like a lot of resources to you? That's a lot of harvesting and smelting (which attracts more hordes) to burn in one night.
    No, it doesn't at all. I mine at night and dig clay, hunt and chop wood during the day. One harvest from our tree farm is around 30,000 wood, so no, 3000 wood is nothing, and the spikes only go up on horde night.

    We also keep the forges going all the time and constantly keep them with a minimum of 5000 wood each, and we have 8 going.

  4. #19
    Refugee
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Glimpse View Post
    No, it doesn't at all. I mine at night and dig clay, hunt and chop wood during the day. One harvest from our tree farm is around 30,000 wood, so no, 3000 wood is nothing, and the spikes only go up on horde night.

    We also keep the forges going all the time and constantly keep them with a minimum of 5000 wood each, and we have 8 going.
    "We" Bah, you're proving my point. Nerf the game to make it harder for multiplayer, and it becomes aggravating for single player.

  5. #20
    Colony Founder Glimpse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    The Temple of the Great Sham 2017
    Posts
    1,735
    Rep Power
    1
    We, as in 2 of us.

    In my single player game, my tree farm is twice as big. It's not that hard to set one up.

    As far as the steel goes, Miner 69er makes farming tons of iron that much easier.

  6. #21
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    right here.
    Posts
    8,239
    Rep Power
    1
    They aren't dissuading or trying to end strategies. The world is a sandbox but it is also a game about struggling to survive and experiencing an arc of progression. They are balancing things so that you can't have the very best defense by day two because then that eliminates the struggle from the survival. The cost of spikes means that during the first couple hordes you won't be able to have fields of spikes but eventually once your tools and skills are high level and you can fell five trees in the time it used to take to fell one and you can setup three workstations to simultaneously craft spikes you can get to the point where you can easily have fields of spikes. Another example is gunpowder. The early game recipe is more costly and you are going to have a tougher time stockpiling it until your mining improves and you can use the more efficient recipe.

    People will always go to the best they can do. If reinforced concrete were possible on day one people would start building with it from day one. If people could set up 10 rows of spikes around their base for day seven they would do it. If they could put together a minibike on day one they would. I know this because it is how the game used to be (not the minibike) and the complaint was that best base possible could be built during the first week and it was basically game over. There was zero arc.

    There will always be a sentiment by some of wanting to get to the top of the progression immediately. They want their 600 level sniper during the first week if possible and in all other ways want to keep their progression several weeks ahead of the difficulty curve that the game provides and will use whatever exploits and techniques they can.

    There are two settings currently for the game. One is called creative and this is pure sandbox mode. You can do whatever you want and have whatever you want from day one and spikes are so cheap you never have to fell a single tree for an infinite number of them. The other setting is survival and that is meant to be a game with rules and designed balances that provide a significant progression arc so that spikes feel very expensive in the early game but are easily produced later in the game (as one example).

    People simply need to choose which setting best fits their desires.

  7. #22
    Zombie Hunter Jiles111's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Texas! Home of TFP
    Posts
    435
    Rep Power
    0
    If you want indestructible walls then why even have Z's?

  8. #23
    Reconstructionist Bimbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Republic Of Texas
    Posts
    671
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Glimpse View Post
    Maybe I'm playing wrong?
    Was it fun?
    Cause if you had fun, I would say you are not playing wrong.

  9. #24
    Colony Founder Glimpse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    The Temple of the Great Sham 2017
    Posts
    1,735
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Bimbie View Post
    Was it fun?
    Cause if you had fun, I would say you are not playing wrong.
    Thank you. That was exactly my point.

  10. #25
    Colony Founder LuckyStar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    With your Mom
    Posts
    1,620
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Bimbie View Post
    Was it fun?
    Cause if you had fun, I would say you are not playing wrong.
    Unless someone is playing with grenades or angry bobcats.

    In that case, they may be playing wrong. >.<

    Just..... just saying.

  11. #26
    Refugee
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    They aren't dissuading or trying to end strategies. The world is a sandbox but it is also a game about struggling to survive and experiencing an arc of progression. They are balancing things so that you can't have the very best defense by day two because then that eliminates the struggle from the survival. The cost of spikes means that during the first couple hordes you won't be able to have fields of spikes but eventually once your tools and skills are high level and you can fell five trees in the time it used to take to fell one and you can setup three workstations to simultaneously craft spikes you can get to the point where you can easily have fields of spikes. Another example is gunpowder. The early game recipe is more costly and you are going to have a tougher time stockpiling it until your mining improves and you can use the more efficient recipe.

    People will always go to the best they can do. If reinforced concrete were possible on day one people would start building with it from day one. If people could set up 10 rows of spikes around their base for day seven they would do it. If they could put together a minibike on day one they would. I know this because it is how the game used to be (not the minibike) and the complaint was that best base possible could be built during the first week and it was basically game over. There was zero arc.

    There will always be a sentiment by some of wanting to get to the top of the progression immediately. They want their 600 level sniper during the first week if possible and in all other ways want to keep their progression several weeks ahead of the difficulty curve that the game provides and will use whatever exploits and techniques they can.

    There are two settings currently for the game. One is called creative and this is pure sandbox mode. You can do whatever you want and have whatever you want from day one and spikes are so cheap you never have to fell a single tree for an infinite number of them. The other setting is survival and that is meant to be a game with rules and designed balances that provide a significant progression arc so that spikes feel very expensive in the early game but are easily produced later in the game (as one example).

    People simply need to choose which setting best fits their desires.
    I'm not asking for day 1 perfect defense, indestructible spikes, free ammo, or any end to the progression system. One of the things that keeps me playing this game is the progression and skill system, which I think is great. I love the experience of getting slowly better at crafting and building everything, and I love having options and lots of ways to deal with problems.

    My whole point though is that there aren't really enough options and the changes are ruining progression. My original question was if there was going to be something else added or if the developers were trying to make everyone build and repair endless fields of spikes. The last update added even more upgrades to log spikes which is just dumb. ADD SOMETHING ELSE. There's got to be a limit to how much iron you can pound into a cone shape to hurt zombies. Might as well change the name to '7 Days to Build Spikes.' If you gave me salvaged materials and crude tools to defend against zombies I can think of a few different things I would build, but giant conical wooden spikes is not one of them. They don't even seem like a plausible way to hurt someone, more of a navigation hazard than anything. They would only work at the bottom of a pit.

    The increased cost of wood spikes is a good example of the problem. Seems like the goal was to deter 'offensive spiking' where people threw spikes up in front of approaching zeds. They were probably too cheap for how effective they were, although that's still slower than just shooting or meleeing zombies. But now the increased cost makes these items 'neither fish nor fowl.' The only point where wood spikes were really useful was in the early game when the player's options are limited, but now they are priced so high that's when you really can't afford to build them. So the progression system of starting with basic spikes and moving up to something else later is ruined. By the time you can afford a lot of spikes, they aren't worth building.

    Really the whole concept of pulling zeds over spikes to kill them is flawed, they should change how spikes work entirely. Get rid of the dumb log spikes, make the regular spikes upgradable one or two times and that's it. Have spikes immobilize zombies instead of damaging them, with the durability being a timer for how long the player has to shoot or bop them on the head to finish them off. Give the player other tools to use instead of just scaling up the spike production model infinitely. Let me use one of the 30 barrels of gas I have laying around to fill a trench and set it on fire. Let me use noise-making devices to lure zombies into bombs. Let me make a damn spear.
    Last edited by FelixLightfoot; 01-11-2017 at 07:59 PM.

  12. #27
    Refugee
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiles111 View Post
    If you want indestructible walls then why even have Z's?

    Concrete is pretty resource- and time-intensive to build, if the reward for going through all the trouble to build a structure from reinforced concrete is you are immune to further attacks, what's wrong with that? The player still needs to go out to find food, gather more resources, etc. Concrete decays over time and isn't indestructible, some kind of maintenance cost should be involved. Flying, jumping, climbing zombies could all still pose a challenge, plus just keeping zombies out doesn't neutralize them. I could imagine the player building up quite a horde outside waiting for them to have to deal with, potentially trapping them in their own base.
    Last edited by FelixLightfoot; 01-11-2017 at 07:56 PM. Reason: forgot quote

  13. #28
    Hunter
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    110
    Rep Power
    0
    Don't discount realism. In order to make it work, you just have to create an escalation situation.

    Assume concrete is zombie proof. However, at a certain point the groups you fight come at you with non-traditional zombies. Things that burrow under, or spit some substance that breaks walls down, or explode, or are so mutated that they can smash through (behemoths). Many possibilities here.

    Really, they could start by having the current spitting zombies target walls in their way, increasing their block damage and by having them run up to the walls to explode if no line of travel to player. This would start us on the path.

    The point is not game play>than realism. It is game play incorporating realism.

    Player is vulnerable to hazards at start, player becomes immune to hazards they have encountered through defenses, new hazards appear that can thwart current defenses, player has to develop more advanced defenses to deal with them. Rinse and repeat.

    Just make sure that at the end the player defenses can thwart most, but NOT all, of the hazards. This can lead to compelling game play and a feeling of progression.

  14. #29
    Reconstructionist
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Rat Cheer
    Posts
    575
    Rep Power
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by FelixLightfoot View Post
    Concrete is pretty resource- and time-intensive to build, if the reward for going through all the trouble to build a structure from reinforced concrete is you are immune to further attacks, what's wrong with that? The player still needs to go out to find food, gather more resources, etc. Concrete decays over time and isn't indestructible, some kind of maintenance cost should be involved. Flying, jumping, climbing zombies could all still pose a challenge, plus just keeping zombies out doesn't neutralize them. I could imagine the player building up quite a horde outside waiting for them to have to deal with, potentially trapping them in their own base.
    I agree with this, simply because this is my idea of fun play.

    In a REAL zombie apocalypse, I'd find or build something that is impenetrable as possible. But I'd still have to go out to hunt, scavenge, etc. That's even how many zombie movies work. Well, to a point, anyway.

    You'd also still have to kill off the 7 day hordes. They won't go away just because they can't break in, as far as I can tell. We see that in shows and movies. They just hang outside the gates/walls and bang on them, making it difficult to go out. So if you want to go out again, you have to kill them or somehow avoid them.

  15. #30
    Colony Founder Doombringer101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    2,571
    Rep Power
    1
    The issue is the game can't handle hordes of zombies congregating outside your base in numbers that would matter or even come close to the numbers you see in 'real' zombie movies.
    Impenetrable defences are fine if the zombies are essentially besieging you in their 1000's but this simply is not going to happen in this game, food and water mechanics are too forgiving for sieges and the 60 zombies outside your walls would be a picket line at best.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •