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Thread: Base Defense meta

  1. #31
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelixLightfoot View Post
    I'm not asking for day 1 perfect defense, indestructible spikes, free ammo, or any end to the progression system. One of the things that keeps me playing this game is the progression and skill system, which I think is great. I love the experience of getting slowly better at crafting and building everything, and I love having options and lots of ways to deal with problems.

    My whole point though is that there aren't really enough options and the changes are ruining progression. My original question was if there was going to be something else added or if the developers were trying to make everyone build and repair endless fields of spikes. The last update added even more upgrades to log spikes which is just dumb. ADD SOMETHING ELSE. There's got to be a limit to how much iron you can pound into a cone shape to hurt zombies. Might as well change the name to '7 Days to Build Spikes.' If you gave me salvaged materials and crude tools to defend against zombies I can think of a few different things I would build, but giant conical wooden spikes is not one of them. They don't even seem like a plausible way to hurt someone, more of a navigation hazard than anything. They would only work at the bottom of a pit.
    Interestingly enough I put in a suggestion to have log spikes only work at the bottom of a pit that would kill zombies that fell on them so that they could have a different use than the wood spikes. Do you ever use barbed wire? That is seriously one of my new favorite traps. It immobilizes them long enough to be able to get a headshot off. Madmole has mentioned a few new traps they are working on so more stuff is coming-- just not spears.

    The increased cost of wood spikes is a good example of the problem. Seems like the goal was to deter 'offensive spiking' where people threw spikes up in front of approaching zeds. They were probably too cheap for how effective they were, although that's still slower than just shooting or meleeing zombies. But now the increased cost makes these items 'neither fish nor fowl.' The only point where wood spikes were really useful was in the early game when the player's options are limited, but now they are priced so high that's when you really can't afford to build them. So the progression system of starting with basic spikes and moving up to something else later is ruined. By the time you can afford a lot of spikes, they aren't worth building.
    You are correct that offensive use of the spikes was something they were trying to nerf. One of the ideas that didn't make it (but that might be tried at some point) was to make it so only a single spike was crafted at first and then they would have to be upgraded to a full block of spikes. This would really make them useless as offensive weapons but keep the cost low. However, even as they are they are not that prohibitive. I'm not sure what you mean about them not being worth building by the time you can afford a lot of them. For me, I can only afford a single or double layer in the early game but later I can go 3-4 rings much more easily because of my progression. I guess I'm not seeing your perspective on them.

    Really the whole concept of pulling zeds over spikes to kill them is flawed, they should change how spikes work entirely. Get rid of the dumb log spikes, make the regular spikes upgradable one or two times and that's it. Have spikes immobilize zombies instead of damaging them, with the durability being a timer for how long the player has to shoot or bop them on the head to finish them off. Give the player other tools to use instead of just scaling up the spike production model infinitely. Let me use one of the 30 barrels of gas I have laying around to fill a trench and set it on fire. Let me use noise-making devices to lure zombies into bombs. Let me make a damn spear.
    Are you playing the most current build because wood spikes are not quite what you are making them out to be. In Alpha 15 their lethality was increased much higher than I think ever before. They don't just damage zombies anymore--they kill them outright. For immobilizing the barbed wire fence is great. You didn't mention them at all so I wonder if you've played with them since the A15 update.

    I'm not trying to argue against a wider variety of traps and weaponry like blades and spears. I want that too. Like other tower defense games you want your defense to have to be strategic. There needs to be traps and defenses that are strong against some types and weak against others so you have to use strategy and some planning. I agree with you that there are improvements that could be made. Nobody should be able to just slap down whatever and it works flawlessly every single time.

  2. #32
    Colony Founder Crater Creator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelixLightfoot View Post
    The only weapon the player can count on having is the bow, which is totally inadequate for later hordes.
    RNGesus isn't THAT cruel. If you devote a reasonable amount of time to exploring and looting, you should have a selection of weapons to choose from in time for the later hordes, including the crossbow. Plus now you're guaranteed to know the location of a trader, which will have casings, ammunition, and/or calipers. I do think calipers should show up in a few more places for the sake of evening things out, though, like airdrop crates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guppycur View Post
    ... can we voice concerns? Of course! Should we voice concerns? Not always... it really depends on what we're voicing concerns about. Fire demons? Sure. Behemoths (more relevant)? Yep. Console port? Absolutely! But balance? No. Not until it goes gold. THEN we can bitch about balance until we're blue.
    Nonsense. Put yourself in Gazz's shoes, the guy doing most of the balance. Do you really think he's hoping everyone bites their tongues on balance feedback until the game goes gold? Balance is one of those things that benefits most from iteration and player feedback, because it's hard to get right through theory and projections alone. Just because balance will be in flux for a long time doesn't mean they don't want to know what people think of its current state.

    Lastly, @Glimpse: you have 8 forges running all the time? The way I've understood the game, the heat system should be giving you so many screamers that otherwise easy tasks like going out to chop lumber should be quite dangerous. Is this not the case?

  3. #33
    Colony Founder Glimpse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crater Creator View Post

    Lastly, @Glimpse: you have 8 forges running all the time? The way I've understood the game, the heat system should be giving you so many screamers that otherwise easy tasks like going out to chop lumber should be quite dangerous. Is this not the case?
    Currently, set up in the hub city, we have a free fall pit to bedrock on steel spikes, with a hatch over 25 blocks away and off to the side of the pit. Plenty of space to get out to the tree farm, veggie farm and be able to go out and loot/ explore/ hunt and get back in the base without too much worry, but there was the one morning https://7daystodie.com/forums/showth...orning-started that happened when a a screamer saw me.

    All the more fun!

    But normally we can get in and out no problem and still get the constant rain of zombies and loot.

    I also spend time on a dedicated Test map, where all I do is build and test out different bunker designs. If they work, I build them in my single player game, and then I'll build an expanded version for my fiancee and I in our multiplayer world.

    Mining and base building are my favorite parts of the game, so I enjoy testing out different bunkers. I even give them names, like Andy Dwyer ( from Chris Pratt's character on Parks & Rec "I fell in the pit"), The Sarlaac, and Briar Rose.

  4. #34
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    @Roland: I'm playing A15.1. In the previous build, wood spikes were cheap but flimsy early game defense that would not stand up to later hordes. You could throw them up easily while you figured out something more long term.

    Now in the new version they're so expensive you can't build them in any real quantity in the early game, but they aren't a replacement for log spikes in the long term either. They basically don't have a niche anymore, from my perspective. Maybe I need to experiment with them more.

    As for barbed wire, I recall that required forged iron to build in the previous alpha, that resource cost seemed better spent elsewhere. I think in the new version they only need scrap iron now. I think the zombies just sorta walked through it, so it didn't seem very useful.

    @Crater Creator - I'm on my third game and still haven't found calipers. I did find my first crossbow schematic and it's awesome, very noticeable upgrade to the bow. I've checked the trader numerous times but he only has junk; I'm playing random gen this time and haven't found many Working Stiffs boxes.

  5. #35
    Colony Founder LuckyStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crater Creator View Post
    Balance is one of those things that benefits most from iteration and player feedback, because it's hard to get right through theory and projections alone.
    While I agree with this part of your statement, I disagree [respectfully] that a serious stance should be taken by players at this stage regarding balance.

    Yes feedback at this point helps a little, however, not until all the features are implemented [some of which are game changers] will we be able to truly address the issue.

    It's like building a sandcastle when the tide is coming in.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyStar View Post
    Unless someone is playing with grenades or angry bobcats.

    In that case, they may be playing wrong. >.<

    Just..... just saying.

    What about angry bobcats with grenades? Is that going to far?

  7. #37
    Colony Founder LuckyStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreCircuit View Post
    What about angry bobcats with grenades? Is that going too far?
    That sounds like the makings of a really exciting sport!

    I'd watch that.

  8. #38
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    Making concrete impregnable is, no offense, crazy. Realistically it should be, but for game purposes it makes no sense. It just means you could create a 1-room concrete hovel and you've effectively "won" the game.

    The repairing issue I've never had a problem with. I tend to have stockpiles of spikes and cement and I repair whilst the horde is in progress. In the morning after horde nights, my base is typically fully repaired by no later than noon.

    My tips: craft spikes whenever you have crafting downtime. You can kick off huge runs of them at the workbench, or craft 'em yourself when you're not crafting anything else. I'm almost always crafting spikes when out resource collecting / exploring / scavenging, etc. Unless you're in the desert, wood should be readily available and easily amassed. It's the same with concrete, or whatever building material your wall is made out of.

  9. #39
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelixLightfoot View Post
    @Roland: I'm playing A15.1. In the previous build, wood spikes were cheap but flimsy early game defense that would not stand up to later hordes. You could throw them up easily while you figured out something more long term.

    Now in the new version they're so expensive you can't build them in any real quantity in the early game, but they aren't a replacement for log spikes in the long term either. They basically don't have a niche anymore, from my perspective. Maybe I need to experiment with them more.

    As for barbed wire, I recall that required forged iron to build in the previous alpha, that resource cost seemed better spent elsewhere. I think in the new version they only need scrap iron now. I think the zombies just sorta walked through it, so it didn't seem very useful.

    @Crater Creator - I'm on my third game and still haven't found calipers. I did find my first crossbow schematic and it's awesome, very noticeable upgrade to the bow. I've checked the trader numerous times but he only has junk; I'm playing random gen this time and haven't found many Working Stiffs boxes.
    Try out the barbed wire fences and I think you will be pleasantly surprised and may even think up a few new defense strategies using them.

  10. #40
    Colony Founder Glimpse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyStar View Post
    That sounds like the makings of a really exciting sport!

    I'd watch that.
    I would quit watching UFC if that was on the same night.

    But the bobcats would need thumbs to use the grenades... TO THE LAB!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volstag View Post
    Making concrete impregnable is, no offense, crazy. Realistically it should be, but for game purposes it makes no sense. It just means you could create a 1-room concrete hovel and you've effectively "won" the game.
    That's not true. You still have to eat and drink, at the very least (other supplies would be good, too). And that means you have to go out.

    And although I never tested this, I assume 7 day hordes don't just get tired of banging on your walls and leave. They'll still be there when you try to go get some food and water.

    Even if you could build a base that included unlimited food and water, someone had a great suggestion (in this thread, I think). Make it so the constant confinement and listening to the banging and moaning takes a toll on your health.
    Last edited by The Rogue Tomato; 01-13-2017 at 12:20 AM.

  12. #42
    Colony Founder LuckyStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glimpse View Post
    I would quit watching UFC if that was on the same night.

    But the bobcats would need thumbs to use the grenades... TO THE LAB!
    So long as Dana White doesn't get to manage the bobcats.

    He'd find a way to trap them in a contract and pay them 1/10 of what they're worth.

  13. #43
    Colony Founder Glimpse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyStar View Post
    So long as Dana White doesn't get to manage the bobcats.

    He'd find a way to trap them in a contract and pay them 1/10 of what they're worth.
    Very true.

    Speaking of bases, new one is coming along great. Center free fall pit with an upper and lower room. Upper is 10 below the surface with pillars facing into the pit so the zombies can see us and charge, lower is the kill room at bedrock.

    Just spent an hour prettying up the upper ring. It's hilarious to watch screamers fall still shrieking. Now it needs a catchy name. Andy Dwyer is already in the other hub city.

    Maybe Doughnut of Death or Cruller of Cruelty? Or am I just craving a pastry?

  14. #44
    Colony Founder LuckyStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glimpse View Post
    Maybe Doughnut of Death or Cruller of Cruelty? Or am I just craving a pastry?
    I'm voting Doughnut of Death. Was never a fan of Crullers.

    ^_^"

  15. #45
    Colony Founder Crater Creator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyStar View Post
    While I agree with this part of your statement, I disagree [respectfully] that a serious stance should be taken by players at this stage regarding balance.

    Yes feedback at this point helps a little, however, not until all the features are implemented [some of which are game changers] will we be able to truly address the issue.

    It's like building a sandcastle when the tide is coming in.
    I don't see the harm, assuming we're on the same page that a serious stance is something like "this is too easy/hard in the current iteration." TFP are doing a great job, but if we expect them to catch all the imbalances themselves, we're not being realistic and we're not fully participating in the Early Access process. The more feedback we give, the more balanced each Alpha can be, especially in those hard-to-reach areas like what emerges after hundreds of days.

    Balance is also simpler to change than other things. Even if 100% of players said tomorrow that they hate electricity and really, really want upgraded water physics, they can't easily stop one thing and do the other. Whereas if people's complaints are about the balance of, say, wood spikes, the xml can be adjusted whenever. Sure, it might become irrelevant because of other changes, but we shouldn't withhold feedback on the speculation that the 'tide' may be coming in.

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