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Thread: "The PvP Update"

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by playlessNamer View Post
    I was getting raided and i raided several bases (its not about beeing pis.ed about anything) but you are interpreting way to much into it. 90% is just to wait them to go offline, ye you should know who lives there to see when they are offline, thats no gameplay, and then you take for sure the most likely efficient way (not really gameplay too) then its just the claimhealthmodifier/time to break in. Usually you know allready exactly before when players usually go offline because they have a job or other life and leave the server every day at this time.

    The only option is claimhealth 4 (useless), 8 (useless), 24 (useless, just hours), 40+ (getting started be usefull but allready close to impossible for humans with a life/brain)

    The rest of the "gameplay" you list is just in the imagination or at least very unlikely. There is nothing to know about it expect the 3-4 obvious things. Reminds me of some DayZ player stealthing around every corner like James Bond in Mission Impossible even there is no one other in 10km range but he feels like a superagent stealthy imba player.

    For me, i raided several bases and the longest one took about 12 hours with 3 mates. Wasnt even fun once and will for sure never ever do it again, not even on drugs and the game should not support this.

    Turn raiding on with a 10-24 multiplier or turn it off. End of the story. Thinking about claimheathsettings is waste of time. Game doesnt support it and living underground like a rat... is this funny? Getting found by glitch only?

    Hitting a block 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1hour, and more.... seriously? Pls remove from game, makes the game look really bad!
    disagree entirely and btw we raid at x64 protection and its a good balance between hard and rewarding.

  2. #17
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    Hello Gazz,

    I’m writing this on behalf of the players and the admin from nopainnogaincommunity.de,the most active pvp server according to the gametracker website. We are glad, that the pvp aspect is finally getting more attention.

    We have gathered information from our players and admin, regarding the points you mentioned and suggestions we have, so people to enjoy the pvp aspect of 7d2d more.

    The most important aspect of a server is the admin.

    He is the one, who defines the rules and the settings, which in turn define if the server is for beginners, advanced gamers or pro’s.

    As every server is different and players have different levels of game experience, it is impossible to define a clear set of data, to suit everyone’s needs. On a pvp server, experience is one of the most crucial points, when talking about base building, scouting, raiding, recovery, etc.

    We’ll first address the points you made in your posts and then offer some of our own thoughts, experiences and data.


    Sound

    Sound Bugs

    It is of utmost importance to fix the still existing sound bugs of the AK 47 and the Auger.

    When sneaking around (or inside) an enemy base, switching to the AK will cause a loud shooting sound, which instantly makes the base owner aware of intruders.

    The auger on the other hand makes a constant augering sound after being used for a short while. This sound stays even when not augering or switching to a weapon / other tool. The base owner can easily locate the intruder by that continuous auger sound.


    Stomach Growl


    The growling of the stomach is a good feature to remind the player to eat but we perceive it as too loud. It should not be possible to hear it as far as it currently can be heard. Also, any experienced player will not go to a raid, while starving. On the other hand, no player who has a base should be starving in it, as he can gather large amounts of food in a small time period, either by growing crops in underground or tower gardens or spend some time hunting and setting up a stock of provisions.


    Sound Distance

    Arguably the most pressing issue regarding sound is the distance it can be heard at. This used to be extremely far (Pickaxes could be heard at 7km for example). There is still some lack of realism, as the pickaxe or stone axe sounds can be heard further, than those of explosions for instance.

    We suggest to create different sound categories like: explosions, tools, motorized tools, firearms, chests, walking, etc. and to give each of them a certain sound range. This sound range should easily be editable by the admin, so if he believes a sound to travel too far or not far enough, he can change it by changing a number in the server settings.

    Suggestions for base values:

    • Explosions: 3km
    • Firearms: 2km
    • Motorized tools: 1,5km
    • Tools: 800m
    • Chests, walking, safes: 300m




    Offline Raiding

    Auto Turrets

    Auto turrets are a cool idea and have already been implemented by the modding community. If these are going to be implemented in the main game as well, they must work properly.
    They have to recognize owner, friends and enemies and they should not be fooled easily.

    If auto turrets were to be used on a pvp server to protect a base, I as a raider would simply find out their range, place a bedroll right at the border and let them shoot me & respawn until their ammo is used up. Perhaps even hiding behind a rock might make the turret waste it’s ammo.

    We believe auto turrets to be a good idea, but they have to do their job properly.


    Griefing

    You mentioned your experience of logging back into the server and finding your base reduced to rubble.

    Some admins allow this kind of action, though it is not allowed on our server and so far it has proven to be a good rule to not allow griefing. Destroying what’s neccessary to get into a base, at chests and keystones and get back out is fine. Making parts of a base collapse or even destroying the entire base is pointless in our eyes. We have seen servers been raided empty by the alpha team before. Players who had their base destroyed tend to leave the server, as they are pissed off and have to start all over again, so they may as well go to another server for it.
    As someone who raids alot, I made the experience that it is better to steal everything from a base, but leave it as whole as possible, so the owner can build himself up again. That way, I can raid that base again later on and the owner can learn from having been raided and improve his defenses.

    When it comes to griefing, it is also very important to have an active admin, who checks the raids and ensures everything is going according to the rules. If the admin is not online, a bot can be used to record what is happening on the server, so if there are any complains, the admin can retrace the steps the raiders took.


    Offline Raiding

    Offline raiding is most of all a trade of resources (materials and time) and a pinch of psychological warfare (lots of empty safes, hidden chests, fake rooms, traps, etc.) Both raiding and raid protection are arts in and of themselves. It is not merely augering blocks for hours on end. Here again, experience comes into play on both sides. This experience can only be obtained by raiding / getting raided many times and learning from the mistakes.


    Dynamic Claim Modifier


    It might be worth thinking about implementing dynamic claim modifiers (DCM) though, as it is very easy for high-end raiders to get into a new player’s base. The DCM could make the claim protection extremely high (for example x200) within the first few days and have it gradually reduce to the server’s standard claim protection setting. This way, it is extremely costly to raid a noob base, however the noob is under time pressure to make his base safe.

    The DCM should be optional and the extra claim protection and the duration should be changable by the admin in the server settings.


    Different Claim Blocks


    Another idea in regards to claims is to have several different claim blocks, with different ranges. Obviously the greater the range, the more expensive the claim block has to be. Again, this should be an option for the admin to choose. If he does not want to use it, he can simply not tick the box in the server settings and use the current system.


    Offline Claim Protection

    It is not surprising, that most players you talked to didn’t know about the offline claim protection, as it does not work. The idea is good but if you intend to implement this feature in future builds, please make it work.


    Loss and recovery

    Random Spawn Points

    The current system of fixed spawn points leads to the problem you encountered. People will either put spikes or cages at the spawn points. The logical conclusion is to have truely random spawn points rather than a set of fixed ones.

    It has to be noted though, that cages, spikes, etc. at spawn points are considered griefing on our server and are punishable by ban. Therefore it is a matter of the admin and the server policy again.

    We recommend you getting in touch with Smegz0r on steam. He has a bot that has a very good system of setting up random spawn points.

    The radius of the spawn points should also be adjustable by the admin in the server settings.


    Harvest Multiplier


    We like the idea of a harvest multiplier, though this should also not be fixed, as it plays a direct role in the difficulty of the server. Make it optional and adjustable by the admin as well please.


    Explosives and rockets

    As you are interested in player experience concerning rockets and explosives, we gathered some data for you.

    Our server runs with a 32x multiplier and we tested everything at highest skills, highest quality and used double reinforced vault doors as our test objects. We also modified the auger, so it deteriorates 5x slower, as the standard setting renders the auger useless. A raider would have to carry an entire inventory of repair kits into a raid, which is dropped on death on our server.

    The auger deals 5 dmg per hit, which means it takes around 20 minutes to break down the vault door.

    The pickaxe deals 18 dmg per hit, but as the hits come in a much less rapid succession than those of the auger, it takes around 35 minutes to break down the vault door.

    This is where the first problem arises, as there is still a bug when using more than one auger on the door (or any other block). The second auger tends to “repair” some of the damage the first auger made. We believe this to be due to the rapid hits that the auger does. Therefore, 4 augers break down a door much slower than 4 pickaxes do. Not to mention the auger sound bug, which usually causes players to lower their in game sound to zero.

    The rocket launcher deals 18 dmg per hit and is therefore just as strong as a single pickaxe hit. This renders the rocket launcher useless on our server settings. The same goes for dynamite. As TNT can not be placed in claimed territory, it is out of the question.

    As there are currently no effective explosives, we introduced a new kind of dynamite called Raid-Dynamite. The specs are:

    • Range: 3
    • Damage (block): 9000 (xml value)
    • Damage (entity): 50
    • Damage on claimed blocks: 564
    • Costs: 2 plant fiber, 20 paper, 2 ducttape, 100 gun powder



    Using Raid-Dynamite, you can break down formerly mentioned vault door with 43-44 sticks of Raid-Dynamite.

    Additionally Raid-Rockets could be introduced but we have not done that so far. They would have to be half as strong as Raid-Dynamite and would cost twice as much gun powder as normal rockets, plus 4 ducttape.


    Part 2 in Next Post

  3. #18
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    Part 2


    Additionally Raid-Rockets could be introduced but we have not done that so far. They would have to be half as strong as Raid-Dynamite and would cost twice as much gun powder as normal rockets, plus 4 ducttape.


    Time Management

    Tools

    Tools are currently strong enough in our opinion. The problem is, as mentioned before, that x>1 pickaxes are faster in destroying a block than x>1 augers. This has to be fixed.


    Raid Time

    It is perfectly normal to spend alot of time destroying claimed blocks. It may seem like a pain for someone who does not raid on a daily basis, but you get used to it and it does give the base owner time to defend.


    Block Multiplier

    In order to make time management more individual on servers, blocks could be grouped and be given a multiplier, which the admin can change from the standard value. Blocks could be grouped into:
    • Voxelblocks
    • Wood
    • Concrete / Steel
    • Esthetics (Adobe, Cobblestone, Flagstone, etc.)
    • Scrapiron




    OP due to skills and quality

    Currently weapons deal 200% damage and armor absorbs 200% damage when the relevant skills and quality are at maximum value. This makes it virtually impossible for a new player to kill a high-end player. If the values would be reduced, all high-end players would be unhappy and not invest time into skilling anymore, as it wouldn’t make a notable difference and any noob can kill them. Everyone has a different opinion about this.

    To solve the issue we suggest to introduce a multiplier for the boost quality and skills give. This multiplier has to be adjustable by the admin in the server settings. This way, every server can fine tune the settings and make it as easy or difficult as they want. Like before, the relevant items could also be assigned to groups, to make adjustments easier for the admin.

    Part 3 Next Post


    - - - Updated - - -

    Part 3

    Our ideas

    Chat feedback for pvp kills

    We would like to have the feature back, where it says Player X killed Player Y in chat. PvP Players are very aware of their reputation and love for everyone to see, when they kill someone. This is also a demoralisation aspect during raids.


    Score System

    Currently points are mainly awarded for killing zombies. We’d welcome it, if player kills would also be rewarded with points. To make this a little more interesting, a system could be created, which awards more points for killing players who have a higher level than oneself and the other way round.


    FPS Drops
    Until this day, FPS drop drastically when other players are near oneself. This makes PvP fights increasingly difficult and annoying.


    Bulletproof Glass

    We created a modified copy of the business glass block called bulletproof glass. It has 9000 hitpoints (like reinforced concrete). It costs 50 lead (in forge, not scrap), 200 molten glass and 5 clay.

    This new block offers tons of new tactical options in base building and PvP. You can actually see who is behind a door by integrating bulletproof glass blocks in your base design, without having to worry about getting shot through it, like it is the case with iron bars.

    We’d love for this block to make it into the set of standard game blocks. It would be great, if all block types (pillars, ramps, etc.) that exist for concrete, would also be made for bulletproof glass.

    The only issue is, that when building with completely see-through blocks, the preview of the block (just before placing it) can hardly be seen at all, so it is difficult to rotate ramps etc. in the desired position. Perhaps it is possible to have the block more visible in the preview?!


    Embrasures

    Embrasure blocks would be great, especially for PvP servers. Embrasures are currently created by putting two ramp blocks on top of each other, to create a slit between them. It would be nice to have a single block that does the job. Perhaps have ½ and ¼ size versions of it as well.


    Alarms

    Another idea we had to increase base security is to have alarm blocks. This could be a pressure plate landmine, which doesn’t explode but upon activation causes a loud tone and the smoke of an airdrop to appear. This instantly alerts the base owner, that an intruder (or zombie) is heading his way.


    Tools Damage vs Different Materials

    We noticed that different tools do not deal different damage on different materials in claimed territory. A fireaxe for instance makes 1 dmg to a claimed wooden chest. Fists also make 1 dmg to said chest. Therefore it is faster to open a claimed wooden chest with your fists than with a fireaxe. This has to be fixed.


    Enemy Marker


    Like in other games, we’d like 7d2d to have a hotkey that marks enemies when they are in the player’s crosshair. Marking them could make a little marker hover above them, that can be seen by the player and his friends for a short duration of time (20 seconds for example).

    Especially during PvP matches with loads of players, it can get confusing who is who and friendly fire is a constant issue. This feature would make scouting players and their behaviour alot better.


    Map Marker Description

    Map markers are awesome but unfortunately there are too few characters for the description. On a PvP server I’d like to be able to set a marker on an enemy base and write the names of the players who live in that base into the marker description. This is currently not possible.


    Weapon Damage Decoupling

    Currently weapon damage is directly coupled to the difficulty setting of a server. It would be great to have the option to remove the coupling and set weapon damage modifiers individually for explosives, firearms, melee weapons, etc. Also a modifier for block damage and entity damage would be great. This helps fine tuning the server to the desired difficulty.


    Clipping bugs

    All still existing clipping bugs have to be fixed. There is no point in having an underground base, if someone can see through faulty map textures.


    Server update pre-release

    The update for servers should be launched a few hours before the client updates are launched, so server admins have enough time to update their servers and implement all xml changes etc.


    Craftable oil

    As the augers require rather large amounts of repair kits now when raiding, we made oil craftable on our server. It costs 100 oil shale to make 1 oil.


    Backpack drop on quit


    When players log out and server settings are set to drop inventory on quit, the drop can be circumvented by closing the process structure of 7d2d in task manager.


    Admin Teleport Animation


    Animation has to be removed and admin should be able to teleport to a given user via the player list. Admin needs to have invisible mode to spy on users.

    There should also be a player cam, so the admin can view through the eyes of the player, what the player is doing. This makes it much easier to spot cheaters or glitch users.


    God Mode


    God mode doesnt work. It enables you as the admin to fly through blocks, but it does not make you invulnerable.


    Item Description


    Item description for newly made items does not get sent to other players on the server. They still see the standard description of the original item.


    Conclusion


    When asking 3 players you get 5 opinions. That’s normal. Everyone has different preferances and we will not find a one-fits-all setting.

    In conclusion we can say that the most important issue is to give server admins as many adjustments as possible, so they can fine-tune their servers and make them just as difficult / easy, noob / pro friendly, etc. as they like.

    We would like to take this opportunity to invite you, Gazz, to our server, so you can take a look at what we believe to be (and our active community prooves us right) a good PvP server.

    You are also welcome to visit us on teamspeak: ts3.nopainnogaincommunity.de

  4. #19
    Fun Pimps Staff Gazz's Avatar
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    Ahh, finally some useful feedback. =)

    Quote Originally Posted by thomtree View Post
    Dynamic Claim Modifier

    It might be worth thinking about implementing dynamic claim modifiers (DCM) though, as it is very easy for high-end raiders to get into a new player’s base. The DCM could make the claim protection extremely high (for example x200) within the first few days and have it gradually reduce to the server’s standard claim protection setting. This way, it is extremely costly to raid a noob base, however the noob is under time pressure to make his base safe.

    The DCM should be optional and the extra claim protection and the duration should be changable by the admin in the server settings.
    I believe that in the "Land claim" thread I (or someone else) had a concept of the claim modifier dynamically increasing as you do damage to the base.
    That would encourage "surgical" raiding and protect from total devastation. In theory...



    Additionally Raid-Rockets could be introduced but we have not done that so far. They would have to be half as strong as Raid-Dynamite and would cost twice as much gun powder as normal rockets, plus 4 ducttape.
    This could essentially be HEAT vs HE rockets.
    The HE has a decent radius and is effective against zombies and to some degree against blocks.
    The HEAT has it's explosion mostly for show but does direct damage on impact... a lot of damage.
    The latter would be your "raid" rocket... or for killing ferals and cops with direct hits of this anti-tank warhead. LOL



    Another idea we had to increase base security is to have alarm blocks. This could be a pressure plate landmine, which doesn’t explode but upon activation causes a loud tone and the smoke of an airdrop to appear. This instantly alerts the base owner, that an intruder (or zombie) is heading his way.
    The technology for that already exists.
    Remember those unlootable trash bits on roads or in abandoned houses?
    They make a sound when stepped on.



    Quote Originally Posted by thomtree View Post
    Item Description

    Item description for newly made items does not get sent to other players on the server. They still see the standard description of the original item.
    Yes, it's not pushed but atm it's not a priority feature. It will be when mod support is tackled...

  5. #20
    Reconstructionist Poojam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazz View Post
    IMO that is a big part of the problem.

    There is so much vertical progression in the game that it would never pass muster in a PVP game.

    There is a damage factor of 5 between "no skill and crappy weapons" and "max skill and top weapons" and if you factor in armor and high wellness it's over 20.

    You can tell me about "player skill" whatever you want but if I do 20x as much relative damage then I'll win that "fight".

    If I was told to rebalance the game for PVP I would have to create a different balance.

    • You get XP for killing zombies but not for players. You get ego points for doing the latter...

    • All skills like Heavy Armor, Mining Tools, or Rifles go straight out the window.
      There will be no grinding skill.

    • You can buy perks from skill points but they dont have as much punch, either. No 2x damage modifier.
      Maybe +30% is manageable.

    • Weapons and parts retain QL but a QL 1 part does not have 40% but 66% of a QL 600 parts' stats.

    Much less "progression" and therefore a far more level playing field but you can still do all the things you do in the vanilla (PVE) game - with the exception of watching skill numbers go up.


    You are heading in the right direction. It's a diverse realm with a lot of different opinions on how "hardcore" you get. I've played on 4x hardcore (no rules) servers that were a ton of fun. These servers lead to a unique playstyle where most people hide their bases, unclaimed. The protection is so low, that you really just reveal yourself if you claim things. It's far more common for someone to come by punching grass and get a ding. Which is a tough lesson that newbies learn. It's also more exciting for more experienced players because your stuff can only get so secure, even at 4x. You have to be creative and design mazes, dead falls, traps, hidden chests behind false walls. Lots of neat things that I think taps into the game's inherent building capability that sets it apart from the competition.

    I've been playing on a 64x server lately and honestly it can be kind of a drag. The bases are simple and large. People don't have to use their imagination much. The decision to raid is simply a time investment. If I have enough mats, then I don't bother raiding a big base unless I personally have had a reason to do so through negative interactions with the owner. The best servers are a good medium I think. 16x-24x protection is optimum imo.

    I recommend you come play on what I think you would call a more healthy, moderate PVP server. Wicked Clowns is a good one (16/32 belt drop only, no griefing). World of Anarchy is also good and more hardcore (64x all drop, griefing allowed). Both have dedicated owners and a host of active (often anonymous) admins/moderators that make sure things keep going smoothly. These are pretty tight-knit communities, with several lone wolfs, small groups, and occasional clan that arises. What makes part of the PVP aspect successful, and I think will always be required no matter what rulesets can be designed is the presence of an admin/moderators to enforce the rules. The game is not secure enough to prevent hackers/exploiters, and I don't think can ever become so due to the way the authentication occurs between server & client. What constitutes griefing is a diverse issue with many different owners establishing rules that suit them. Not so sure that the game can be balanced or designed to instill a better sense of this. Examples (throwing the loot out on the ground, shuttling loot out to a temp base/drop chest, destroying containers, destroying blocks not required for access/egress, destroying bases that are not raidable without collapse (bases on 1x stilts), occupying/claiming a raided base as your own, filling it with land mines, camping bedrolls) There is probably a dozen other aspects that I've seen get interpreted differently where violators will get punished and admins will restore lost loot/region files to restore the peace. It's complicated and I don't know if the game can be designed/balanced to make this any better. Personally, I and some others find solace in just hardcore no rules (save for hackers). It's easier for owners to manage as well.

    If you'd be up for it, you're welcome to hop on teamspeak with a few friends and I and we can discuss the health of these servers/what would change to make them better/several other viewpoints. Maybe log a few hours and you can get a taste for raiding/some of the good things. We all have over 1000 hours playing PVP, with one guy over 4000 hours. 4-8 PM CST on Friday is the best time. Weekends would be good too. PM if you're up for it. I think you'll be surprised, probably even have fun.


    In short though,

    Yes - XP for zombies. XP for players too (it's not that much is it)

    (general MP comment) Restore the different sound for accessing creative menu. It was valuable for detecting hackers. Also, add a property for establishing the owner/crafter of a chest. The bad ones get banned quickly because they just wreak havoc. The worst thoug are the stealthy ones that quietly spawn in materials without drawing much attention to themselves. They don't go around blowing stuff up or keeping 500 oil barrels in their inventory. They just conveniently always have a full set of armor, 570 sniper rifle, and 125 ammo. A lot of these hackers are wising up to the fact that if they keep their stuff in a claimed base, they get banned. So they just stash it in an unclaimed dump chest somewhere. Having unique identifiers would be valuable for admins. Wicked clowns has a feature that auto bans players when they have certain items in their inventory only accessible through the CM. Would like to see things like this become stock admin/moderation tools with the game and not reliant on some 3rd party server managers.

    K, back on point.

    Loot tables need to be rebalanced and better randomized. This is kind of a dumb thing in even a realistic sense, since it introduces some sort of schrodinger's cat-like paradox on what's actually in the box. But practically speaking, the scavenging skills/quality joe perks put new and low level players at a huge competitive disadvantage.

    Armor and weapon modifier perks need to be heavily nerfed or deleted entirely. Maybe these could be adjusted to offer meager gains, but that gets out of hand quick with the multiple perks doubling up on each other. Gate locking different armor classes/crafting material behind skill trees is totally okay, I just don't like the damage modifiers via skill level. I don't think the game should get balanced back out flat to be RUST, where you only need to farm the mats. But requiring a time investment/specialization can be good so long as it doesn't lead to crazy force multipliers from geared to the ungeared. Time to kill needs to be revisited and reduced with all guns. I should be able to kill you with a well placed headshot from a lot of different guns. At this point in time, I simply can't come close to killing a 250 wellness guy in military armor with heavy armor perked out. At a low level, I'll hit them with a 600 quality sniper rifle 4x in the chest and it still won't do it. Ridiculous.

    Wellness gains (50) through perks should be reconsidered for reduction. 25% more health is quite a bit.

    Delete all of the huffing/puffing/groaning/map open sounds. I very rarely find someone since they are making these sounds, and more often get revealed stalking someone by making them myself. The competitive advantage for mechanics like this should be given to the stalker, not the prey.

    Delete the hot/cold temperature system.

    Yes, gather mats faster or preferably reduce crafting quantities for reinforced concrete.

    Show elevation, food & water in the hud. No menus for these things. (not unique to PVP i suppose, just an inherently bad design decision)

    Keep the ability for the server to spec the land claim health, radius, drop type rulesets. Diversity is good here.

    Invest in architecture to boost the capability of servers to handle more players (up to 50 at least). At this point "PVP" is not really supported all that well since a really really good server can barely handle 25 people. With a large world (even at 10k), the game begins to flourish in a competitive nature at around 30.

    Allow unlimited map size. It gives players the ability to track out 15/20k to build up resources/establish themselves before moving closer to 0,0 and getting into the fray. Think of PVP'ers like introverts/extroverts. Some need the far away base to restore/rebuild resources/confidence/enable a sense of security. Some want to nomad it and just fight 100% of the time. Current drop rates for food/water support the nomadders just fine, but the 10k map is a little too small given the vanilla POI density with a 7 day respawn time. I can cover just about 1/4 of the map on a minibike in one evening. Experienced players will find your base at the current map limits. Some have added PVE/PVP zones. Which I think is a nice idea, but I haven't seen it executed well without some undesirable outcomes.

    Land claim blocks should be expensive (think 500 steel + 1000 concrete mix + 20 red flowers). They used to be worth spending 20 minutes to steal one. They are way too cheap now, so people spam them.

    Time to open wooden chests is about right but the degradation is kind of wonky (about 2 minutes). We usually just punch them open since everything does 1 damage.

    Time to open gun safes should be 2-4x longer than a wooden chest. It should also hold more slots. It's physically bigger, metal, and requires more mats.

  6. #21
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    Block damage should be established with a more stable leveling arc on time to destroy. I think it's worth looking at reducing the effectiveness of steel upgrades to reinforced concrete. It's a huge difference. It's tough to balance with the mining perk. I really think some experimental data is required to figure out how it's behaving. On a 64x server it takes us 18 minutes to open a fully upgraded vault door with TWO people hitting it sequentially with 600 quality steel pickaxes, 5/5 miner 69er, 100 mining for reference. Maybe that's a good time for a 64x server, but it's basically not worth it until you're leveled and perk'd out. I don't care to find out what it would be for a level 1 player on that durability setting. I'm certain it's too long.

    Need something to give you wellness faster or nerf the wellness multiplier reduction on the higher levels. It takes weeks to get to max wellness now since you have to get it from food. Dying and losing 10 wellness is painful. Getting into firefights/battles is more infrequent because people don't want to lose 40 or 50 wellness in one evening. Antibiotics was totally fine when they gave wellness. The moldy bread to make it was somewhat rare, so you couldn't make millions of them. Some servers added a custom recipe so that sham sandwiches could be crafted into moldy bread, which was a logical extension for boosting the availability further (good touch). Personally, I like World of Anarchy's solution which was to add a canabis plant. You have to loot the seeds, they give 1 leaf, and craft it into a joint with some paper. The plants take 12 real time hours to bloom and cultivate. They yield about 3-4 wellness over time when you smoke the joint. (he's dutch - it's legal there).

    Auger durability and damage rate is too low. It's gains over using a steel pickaxe aren't commensurate over the auger's rarity. Auger parts need to be a little more common.

    Airdrops are a good thing. They bring people out of their bases to converge on a common area. Higher frequency and the addition of server notifications in chat would be good. "Airdrop landing near X,Y"

    Zombies should take fall damage. Base building, heat generation, and zombie defense is part of it and should remain part of the game experience. It's just we ought to be able to build a base that is mostly self sufficient with the tier 1 materials and minimal maintenance. Just don't do anything drastic and make spikes worthless.

    Sound is supreme in pvp servers. Sound proximity has been completely broken with 14.6, but was good for the rest of 14. Good players turn off the music and ambient sounds entirely, then boost the game sounds really high. With a good set of headphones they can hear you 4k away banging on a car. Which is actually not far from being that unrealistic if you are familiar with living out in the country. I like that. I like that the forges don't tink anymore. That was a little too revealing, but some would disagree. I think you should hear them from further than you can now, but they used to be really bad. Like 7-8k away. Player sounds interacting with the environment should be audible from a fair distance. Otherwise you have a heck of a time finding people to fight. I can't spend enough time on this topic.

    Completed weapons and military parts should be a little more common in the stores/more frequent in air drops. The rarity for even getting a good gun in garbage loot containers should have a better %. Killing cops to get level 100 sawed off shotguns really sucks. But magically if you're higher level, they give better guns. Balance with extreme prejudice goes to the high level player/or team's designated looter. I find myself ignoring all loot containers that aren't in a store, air drop, or military cache after getting to a decent level. The scavenging part of the game just dies.

    A somewhat pvp specific contentious issue is destruction of store loot containers. Some hate it and consider it griefing, and some feel it is is fair game. The fair gamers say this adds an ability for denying your competition resources which makes you stronger. If you value them, then you should protect them. I agree mostly, but there are some items in the game that are essentially only looted from these crates which makes them too valuable to get weapon/machine parts. I think if you boost the loot table to include crap containers to have small chances to get better items, then this contention will die down. On an established PVP server (day 100) with a 10k radius, it can be quite challenging to find a store that isn't claim protected/heavily reinforced.

    I'm sure I'm missing a lot of things. Some aspects change with each alpha a bit, but I tried to focus on the latest.

  7. #22
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    Oh. On belt drop servers a common cheap thing to do is to run with crossbow on your bar and exploding crossbow bolts. The bolts are expensive (good thing) but not losing anything of any value here allows people to have a very OP weapon at essentially no cost. Once a few good shooters figure it out, it usually kills all reason to run anything other than that. I think the explosive range should be nerfed.

    Raiding with explosives should have minor gains over picking it at somewhat intensive costs. Or just drop the block damage all together, which is what most server owners do.

  8. #23
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    The game is constantly changing so who knows.
    The massive multipliers on all skills have always been a pain to balance. Weapon skills/perks have already been nerfed to half the effect they originally had. =)

    And note to self:
    Auto-kicking for high ping. That solves a lot of cheat issues.

  9. #24
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    pvp is interesting is can launch other looks to the game.

    One way to capture the flag would be agreeable.
    A progression of goal so where there are goals to meet the team, winning the fastest team.
    A survival mode where players have only one life, after death the players could continue their goals, but without inteferir other competitors and not entitled to the prize.
    A classic team deathmatch with a deferent feature where the players would create their weapons or move to another similar following a gun master (available in Battlefield 3 and 4)

    these are my ideas for now.

  10. #25
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    All these are great posts, but honestly, until the game can reward community building and territory gain over just 'the kill', then all the other posts here are just band aids. I like what Hal suggested above. I also like the slapping and slaying mechanism that was suggested for higher level players that. I have played on servers that give a 100% invulnerable base and ones that give nothing. Both are fun if you put your mind in the right perspective. One is a base building, alpha tribe all out war situation, where the other is a stealth like small hidden base, dispersed inventory situation. Both are very fun if you can get your mind around each style. Thanks Gazz for starting this thread. It has been sorely missing from TFP and you are now one of them.

  11. #26
    Zombie Hunter Mr_PeaCH's Avatar
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    Awesome post(s) by thorntree.

    Can someone point to a game that they feel is doing PVP right other than a game that only exists to PVP. I mean a game with the elements that 7DTD esposes; survival, crafting, and 'tower defense' for lack of a better word.

    I'd love to PVP in this game but it's the griefing and the steep curve whenever you start from behind that kills it. Short of 'gentlemens' agreements' what are some ways to keep it competitive without the sort of all-or-nothing blow outs?

    It seems a little contrived but I think something where different factions or clans on a server must give notice to the clan whose base they wish to raid. A sort of 24 or 48 hour "we are coming for you!" After all, what is the fun of a raid when there is nobody home to defend it? That's just griefing pure and simple. Plus I like the notion of offense vs. defense. None of that would stop PvP outside of a declared raid; anything is fair game outside of the bases with the claim blocks or whatever.

    But ultimately such rules only prove that someone will work to find a way to circumvent it and so the server admin is the final arbiter.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_PeaCH View Post
    Awesome post(s) by thorntree.

    Can someone point to a game that they feel is doing PVP right other than a game that only exists to PVP. I mean a game with the elements that 7DTD esposes; survival, crafting, and 'tower defense' for lack of a better word.

    I'd love to PVP in this game but it's the griefing and the steep curve whenever you start from behind that kills it. Short of 'gentlemens' agreements' what are some ways to keep it competitive without the sort of all-or-nothing blow outs?

    It seems a little contrived but I think something where different factions or clans on a server must give notice to the clan whose base they wish to raid. A sort of 24 or 48 hour "we are coming for you!" After all, what is the fun of a raid when there is nobody home to defend it? That's just griefing pure and simple. Plus I like the notion of offense vs. defense. None of that would stop PvP outside of a declared raid; anything is fair game outside of the bases with the claim blocks or whatever.

    But ultimately such rules only prove that someone will work to find a way to circumvent it and so the server admin is the final arbiter.
    EVE Online does this very well by allowing the attackers to take down the defenses of a base (A huge investment in time and manpower to begin with) then towers will go into a state of invulnerability for a defined length of time in hours. At the most, a 24 or so hour period (if they are full of strontium.) This mechanism works very well in that the attacker never knows how long they will have to wait after the initial attack, and the defender has a known amount of time to rally forces or attempt to move assets before their base is laid to waste. From my experiences, EVE Online is a game with Base/empire building, but also a very robust PVP aspect.

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    There is easy solution to all this problems with base raiding:
    Every base should have "claimfire" build, without it its not a base.

    Claimstones need to be connected to each other (zones overlapping).
    In this overlapping zones there should be "claimfire" object. There should be a limit on how much fuel this claimfire can store (lets say 24 hours). If fire is burning, connected claimstones have 999 strength, if not, server defined strength.

    Once first block looses its first level hp (you can upgrade wood frame twice, each giving you 200hp i think, that makes this object loose its first level hp after destroying its first 200hp), claimstones make all blocks invul and you cannot refuel (or turn off) your claimfire until all the fuel is gone and all the blocks are repaired (you can only repair your blocks if claimfire is turned off).

    So every time you login, you put on your claimfire amount of fuel you want your base to be protected with. In this time, attacker can start raiding, but has to wait for said time for base to be raidable. With some timer notice, attacker knows when to be online to finish things, but also you can be there to defend it.

    As far as PvP goes, current implementation is OK, apart from hackers. Last time I got killed, I managed to kill that person back and his gun had 450 bullets in magazine for example.

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    Another shameless plug to my current project: Accelerated PvP. I'll list the main goals as to how it fixes the problems with PVP. This is an active project I'm working on and the server is up RIGHT NOW.

    1) Slow progression - The slow nature of 7dtd does not do well for PvP. The amount of time it takes to become relevant in an established server is a huge investment. Because of this, the problems below just get out of control.

    2.) Slow resource gathering - It takes a long time to gather resources. Once you have gathered a good amount, it can all be taken away easily and while you are offline, this discourages offline raiding, but many servers tend to just make offline raiding hard, and by hard I mean an 8 hour exercise of holding the left mouse button. This is not fun. This is absurd.

    3.) Slow base construction - You build a base, it's concreted with a spike pit surrounding it. You spent the better part of three days building it and dammit it's not going down while you are logged. Hell, with most servers, your base isn't going down even when you are online.

    I'm going to pause here for a bit. Because of the large investment of time and energy, most admins (rightfully so) ACTIVELY DISCOURAGE VIA POLICY base raiding and griefing. In my opinion, those two things are some of the most fun things there are to the game.

    4.) Way too much space. People use stealth and distance to help protect their base. Basically, they are saying they don't actually want to participate in PvP, because they hide their base away from the action, reasonably so because of the above mentioned costs to getting a foot in the door.

    I could go on about the problems of PvP, but let's talk about the solutions I've already implemented. (They need testing. Please test them)

    Fast progression. I restarted the server yesterday (and will again on Friday). Within a few hours of playing I was pushing level 50, with 10 skill points per level I had maxed out blunt weapons and scavenging, quicker crafting, etc.)

    Great loot. I broke into a gunsafe and immediately had a pistol, hunting rifle, and a shotgun. If it came down to it, I could do some damage in a PvP scenario. Zombies are plentiful and also drop good loot. Lots of airdrops and treasure quests. Loot does not respawn in normal containers though.

    Fast resource collection and cheap base cost. Each night, to protect from the hordes, I set up a small base with wooden/scrap walls with spikes around. It was cheap to do and I got a lot of levels for it. Abandoned it as I moved on. By the end of my session, I had built a pit base in a cave with some zombie collection spikes. It was decent, but I still had some trouble with the horde literally raining down on me.

    Super small map. at 1500 radius, there is no where to run or hide. You wanted PvP, you got it.

    Short map life cycle. Because of the frenzied nature of progression, maps will probably only last a week or two.

    Weak blocks, decent online blocks, invincible offline blocks. - At 25% durability, blocks go down fast. They go up just as fast. Controlled blocks are at x8 (Effective x2), and control blocks can be made easily from scrap. Control blocks themselves aren't durable. 24 hour offline durability, then your base is vulnerable. Don't like it? Too bad, the sessions only last a week or two. Besides, you have levels, graba weapon and take someone's base.

    That's the main goal of this project, Accelerated PvP.

    The reasond PvP sucks right now is because base capturing is the best but it takes WAY TOO MUCH time to build and invest in a base right now, so we make it nearly impossible to take a base, which ruins the point. If you want to try this mod out (It's only xml), just Search for Accelerated PvP. Server is dead right now so if you are by yourself you will have to deal with aggressive zombies. You can still check out the xml mods and see how quick it is to progress.

    Enjoy!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkix View Post
    Another shameless plug to my current project: Accelerated PvP. I'll list the main goals as to how it fixes the problems with PVP. This is an active project I'm working on and the server is up RIGHT NOW.

    1) Slow progression - The slow nature of 7dtd does not do well for PvP. The amount of time it takes to become relevant in an established server is a huge investment. Because of this, the problems below just get out of control.

    2.) Slow resource gathering - It takes a long time to gather resources. Once you have gathered a good amount, it can all be taken away easily and while you are offline, this discourages offline raiding, but many servers tend to just make offline raiding hard, and by hard I mean an 8 hour exercise of holding the left mouse button. This is not fun. This is absurd.

    3.) Slow base construction - You build a base, it's concreted with a spike pit surrounding it. You spent the better part of three days building it and dammit it's not going down while you are logged. Hell, with most servers, your base isn't going down even when you are online.

    I'm going to pause here for a bit. Because of the large investment of time and energy, most admins (rightfully so) ACTIVELY DISCOURAGE VIA POLICY base raiding and griefing. In my opinion, those two things are some of the most fun things there are to the game.

    4.) Way too much space. People use stealth and distance to help protect their base. Basically, they are saying they don't actually want to participate in PvP, because they hide their base away from the action, reasonably so because of the above mentioned costs to getting a foot in the door.

    I could go on about the problems of PvP, but let's talk about the solutions I've already implemented. (They need testing. Please test them)

    Fast progression. I restarted the server yesterday (and will again on Friday). Within a few hours of playing I was pushing level 50, with 10 skill points per level I had maxed out blunt weapons and scavenging, quicker crafting, etc.)

    Great loot. I broke into a gunsafe and immediately had a pistol, hunting rifle, and a shotgun. If it came down to it, I could do some damage in a PvP scenario. Zombies are plentiful and also drop good loot. Lots of airdrops and treasure quests. Loot does not respawn in normal containers though.

    Fast resource collection and cheap base cost. Each night, to protect from the hordes, I set up a small base with wooden/scrap walls with spikes around. It was cheap to do and I got a lot of levels for it. Abandoned it as I moved on. By the end of my session, I had built a pit base in a cave with some zombie collection spikes. It was decent, but I still had some trouble with the horde literally raining down on me.

    Super small map. at 1500 radius, there is no where to run or hide. You wanted PvP, you got it.

    Short map life cycle. Because of the frenzied nature of progression, maps will probably only last a week or two.

    Weak blocks, decent online blocks, invincible offline blocks. - At 25% durability, blocks go down fast. They go up just as fast. Controlled blocks are at x8 (Effective x2), and control blocks can be made easily from scrap. Control blocks themselves aren't durable. 24 hour offline durability, then your base is vulnerable. Don't like it? Too bad, the sessions only last a week or two. Besides, you have levels, graba weapon and take someone's base.

    That's the main goal of this project, Accelerated PvP.

    The reasond PvP sucks right now is because base capturing is the best but it takes WAY TOO MUCH time to build and invest in a base right now, so we make it nearly impossible to take a base, which ruins the point. If you want to try this mod out (It's only xml), just Search for Accelerated PvP. Server is dead right now so if you are by yourself you will have to deal with aggressive zombies. You can still check out the xml mods and see how quick it is to progress.

    Enjoy!
    I can appreciate that you have modded some changes to make the pvp 'as you want it' but I and most other pvp players would actually disagree with many of your points. I wont go through them all but I did want to focus on one in particular with regard to the time investment.

    Many many players in pvp really enjoy taking the time to build up a truly strong base (no matter the protection settings). As with all things in life the harder something is to achieve the more satisfying it becomes and when you finish off that super secure fortress you have been working on its genuinely a great feeling, especially when you know its safe enough that you can log off and not worry about it (too much).

    A lot of players dont want fast resources or fast building, they want the opposite, they want it to be hard and when you come across that giant fortress they want to have a feeling of awe and excitement at the time taken to do it.

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