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Thread: "The PvP Update"

  1. #31
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    It's gonna sound crazy but I would get rid of or at least make the 7 day hordes optional.

    As of the moment they only serve to punish the few players who stayed logged in, or new players who happen to join the server at the exact wrong time. Most established players will be avoiding them underground anyway as it's usually one of the best options for avoiding both zombies and players.

    This is by far one of the most awkward and immersion-breaking parts of joining any server where people don't all live in one spot- and obviously a balancing issue.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloom_meister View Post
    I can appreciate that you have modded some changes to make the pvp 'as you want it' but I and most other pvp players would actually disagree with many of your points. I wont go through them all but I did want to focus on one in particular with regard to the time investment.

    Many many players in pvp really enjoy taking the time to build up a truly strong base (no matter the protection settings). As with all things in life the harder something is to achieve the more satisfying it becomes and when you finish off that super secure fortress you have been working on its genuinely a great feeling, especially when you know its safe enough that you can log off and not worry about it (too much).

    A lot of players dont want fast resources or fast building, they want the opposite, they want it to be hard and when you come across that giant fortress they want to have a feeling of awe and excitement at the time taken to do it.
    Everyone has their preferences, and I hope that my changes speak to at least some people (they certainly speak to me.). I love griefing and sacking bases, and some of the most fun I've had in pvp in 7days is protracted base sieges. The problem is in that one of them, the assaulting team (it was 3v3) could not possibly win due to the high health of the blocks. They couldn't get in and we were just respawning in the base if we were killed. It was fun for a while but the thrill of the fight wore off when I knew we couldn't lose. I'll keep working on it and hope that some people will want to join in

  3. #33
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    I just found this thread and still need to read through all of it and the other LCB thread more carefully.
    There are some interesting ideas out there and many things that would make stuff more interesting for PVP, but if I had to select one thing that would in my experience make PVP better right now, it would be to fix the broken offline claim modifier.

    The boys at Ground Zero run a nice server and the rules keep most griefing in check. Most of the examples of blatant greifing from this thread (jailing the starting points, reducing a base to rumble, undermining a base, etc) would never happen on the GZ server because the players who did that simply wouldn't be allowed on anymore. However, it would make the PVP dynamic so much better if the LCB's offline modifier worked properly. I'd even be cool with it if the LCB ONLY worked while offline. That is, no LCB modifier at all when I'm online, but make it invinsible while I'm offline (or, at least, give the server admins that option again).

    There isn't any skill to raiding a base while the owner is offline, but if you can do it while they are online then you have got some skills. Unless TFP decide to completely overhaul the PVP mechanics then a lot of the ideas in this thread may just be pie-in-the-sky. If you join a pub, expect it to not be a great PVP experience. But a few minor tweaks can make 7DTD a fun PVP experience on private servers where that server's rules are clearly defined and enforced.

    Admittedly, I'm more of the type that figures you have to have another PLAYER if you are doing PVP. I don't think it is PVP if it is you against another guy's base.
    Just my take.

  4. #34
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    I will start with player progression and experience. My opinion is there shouldn't be any. Make all players maxed out on all skills and perks from day one and remove experience from the game. With that aspect of the game removed everyone will be relatively equal and there will be no insurmountable differences in strength between someone who has been on the server for weeks and a new player who just signed on. PvP worked so much better before the game introduced all the experience, skills, and perks.

  5. #35
    Fun Pimps Staff Gazz's Avatar
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    Also see this one.

    https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?41502


    Awesome. I will get these merged. -- Roland

    Edit: That thread turned ugly...I will selectively glean...
    Last edited by Roland; 02-09-2017 at 08:53 PM.

  6. #36
    Colony Founder Maharin's Avatar
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    Pimp fight!

    EDIT: Sorry, that wasn't very productive of me.

    I agree about no grinding in a PvP environment. Safe places should be kept to a minimum and any guards should deal with problems quickly (so no running around after the people breaking the rules, just kill them outright).

    EDIT2: Also, I think instead of maxing everyone out in everything, give them a certain number of points and let them pick the perks they want without being able to max everything. Then people can differentiate themselves at least a little and try out spec each other.
    Last edited by Maharin; 02-09-2017 at 07:50 PM.

  7. #37
    Colony Founder Pille's Avatar
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    Imho making a good PvP mode (or a game in general) is like voting in a new law, so you have to think about how people can exploit your system.
    *smartass mode off*

    I think we need
    - truly random player spawns to prevent spawn point preparations
    - a 3. spawn option for bedrolls because you can abuse the current system
    - less noisy player sounds
    - fixes for certain bugs (e.g., there is a bug that allows players to see and shoot through the terrain. The claim block can be abused to find protected areas. The minibike frame can be used to build an indestructible wall afaik.)
    - protection for newbies
    Last edited by Pille; 02-09-2017 at 08:17 PM.

  8. #38
    Colony Founder Maharin's Avatar
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    Air drops: I think the loot inside should be more about short term advantages (so buffs, healing, that sort of thing). Also, the time it takes to loot them should be increased either by making the time to open longer or make you have bust it open to get the contents. That way it can get be a bit more competitive to get what's inside.

    Zombies: They need to be there but... I can see them being used as a weapon. Back in the early EverQuest days there was a concept of "trains". Where people would get the attention of monsters and as more would tag along the player would flee. Soon there were a whole lot of monsters following the player until they exited the zone (bad news for anyone else there or just coming in) or they died. Sometimes people would use the trains to their advantage by dragging a bunch of monsters into the midst of someone else's fight, nearly guaranteeing they would die. So I can see someone doing the same sort of thing with a horde or just a large group of zombies. Good thing or bad thing? Hard to tell.

  9. #39
    Colony Founder Pille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maharin View Post
    So I can see someone doing the same sort of thing with a horde or just a large group of zombies. Good thing or bad thing? Hard to tell.
    It's hard to prevent anyway (how would you stop players from using this tatics?) and it makes sense. So don't remove it.
    Last edited by Pille; 02-09-2017 at 08:28 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazz View Post
    How would the game have to be balanced to make PVP viable?
    Broad strokes.
    I'm no PVP player so while I can see the balance issues in the abstract, I am more of a neutral observer here. =)



    Sound

    As mentioned here recently it's really hard to sneak up on someone if your food level drops below 50% or so and your character has an orgasm that can be heard from half a kilometer away.

    Hiding yourself or your base is equally hard for the same reason.

    Keep in mind that the notion of hiding being the only defense can not be the base for everything. It is one aspect!
    If it can be made sufficiently hard to break into bases, hiding would not be the only viable solution.



    Offline raiding / griefing vs PVP

    PVP in theory:
    2-5 players have an exciting time of hide and seek or assaulting someone's base.

    PVP in practice:
    You log in and your base has been reduced to rubble.
    Every. Single. Day.

    Ark has turrets and NPC (dinosaurs) and 99% of the PVP in that game looks like... you log in and your base has been reduced to rubble (and all your dinos killed).
    Can NPC and turrets defend a base while the player is offline or will having turrets and NPC only increase the impact of griefing on the victim because he also has to rebuild turrets and find/hire NPC again?

    I talked to MM about this and he does not consider a separate (and working) offline claim protection a necessity. Is that so?
    (previous claim stone topic: here)

    On the 4 or 5 PVP servers were I asked no one even knew if "offline claim protection" actually worked. (as in having a higher x than when online)



    Loss and recovering from it

    Okay, so you got raided and you respawn around the central hub in your undies.

    Spawn spots are static so on an "established" PVP server with an "alpha tribe" you now log into the steel cages built around all the newbie spawn spots and would have to knock down the wall with your fists.
    With only 2 layers you have to destroy 4 blocks for a total of 13 RL hours of punching.
    You would of course starve to death and respawn in a different cage several times before you had a chance to get out of one such spot.

    Oh, and before you laugh it off as a "no one would ever do that"... I logged into a PVP server, looked up, and saw this:

    Land claimed, naturally. I am not making this up...


    But let's say you are dedicated enough to this particular server to not quit but instead invest a few RL days to get back out of the starter cages and that the alpha tribe is terribly neglect about maintaining their cages.
    Ideally you have caches of gear hidden away but let's say they were found as well.

    On a PVE server where people build awesome bases instead of trying to cave each other's heads in the resource balance works well enough.
    On a PVP server... should you harvest resources faster?
    I'm not talking about digging faster - but instead of getting 25 rocks and 2 iron from a stone block you might get 100 rocks and 8 iron from the same block.

    If fighting players is supposed to be a substantial part of the game, base building / repair and resource harvesting needs to adjust.



    Explosives / Rockets

    On a PVE server, some players use TNT for mining / excavating which is no problem whatsoever.

    I tried asking around on a few PVP servers today but that was a complete waste of time. No one knows ♥♥♥♥. I got a few guesses and opinions and zero usable data.

    On a PVP server... how well do rockets and dynamite work?
    How many of each do you need to get through an iron / vault door or open a chest?

    Does it matter which block (upper/lower/before) of a door you target?



    Time management

    How long in RL units should it take to knock down a steel block or door?

    Right now tools and skills are really powerful.
    Near 400 DPS for a steel pick so with a x8 modifier, a steel block lasts 5 minutes, a vault door 8 minutes.

    Does anyone actually do that or does everyone use explosives? (see above)


    Blocks like "stone" have a
    <property name="LPHardnessScale" value="2" />

    If it works as designed (did not test it myself) then a stone block only has a 2x claim modifier instead of whatever the server setting is.
    With a steel pick that's two hits tops so the most obvious way to attack someone's base would be to undermine it and let it collapse instead of going through the much harder front door.
    Or am I missing something?

    Naturally that doesn't count bedrock bases but should it be a requirement to build at bedrock to avoid this cheesy tactic?

    Ok Gazz you took the time to post as a neutral observer, allow me to respond as a partisan one

    1. Sound

    Sound has changed dramatically over the last few Alphas. You used to be able to hear an auger from at least 3-4k away, which was silly, likewise you could hear a forge clinking away from a good 1k+. Now its hard to hear anything over 100m away so some thing such as gunshots and augers probably need their audible range increasing. On your example of trying to sneak up on someone with 50% food i suggest you are not approaching this with the right mindset (as a non pvp player). PvP players take this into account and smart ones try to stay near full all the time, If i see another player or a base then i make sure i wont be making hungry noises before approaching them.

    2. Offline raiding

    Anti raid base design is an art, it takes time to learn all the tricks to making your loot safe. At this point in the game I never get successfully raided even when offline a couple of days. I am not going to give away all my hard earned experience here but suffice to say, if you get raided and they get into your loot room (this topic doesn't include hackers, different topic) then YOU made an error in your design or you play on a server with protection VERY low.

    Sub topic - Griefing. If you play on a server that allows griefing, and all the popular PVP servers state their rules, then you know what to expect. Note however that if your claims are well hidden/protected and you have some concrete/steel fortress that no-one, and i do mean no-one, is going to take that base down because the time investment is simply insane and the reward is at best minimal. If you dont like the thought of being griefed (as defined by a particular server) then guess what, don't play on servers that allow it! personally I play on full no rules servers, anything goes I find to be good fun.

    3. Recovering from a raid

    Quick point here on your 'static' spawn points, I have never, in the ridiculous playtime I have, ever spawned into a player made cage or know anyone who has. I did once appear on a couple of spikes, once.

    Any smart player on a pvp server has a recovery stash, personally I will have 2-4 and they will have everything you could ever want to get back up and running straight away, I have not need them for a looong time but they are there, just in case. When and how you hide them is the trick of it but I leave that up to you. the point is that, as the saying goes, to put all your eggs in one basket is really stupid.

    4. Explosives - currently non viable as raiding tools, not much else to say except that if you only have one claim and they get it out them tnt becomes extremely viable for making a big smoking hole where someones base used to be

    5. Time management

    I am afraid your example of timings is irrelevant because every server has different setting, suffice to say that on, say, x32 protection, with miner 69 on level 5 and 600Q steel pickaxe it takes a LOOOOONNGGGG time to take down a triple reinforced steel door. Time management is all about your skill level+your tools level+the location of what you are hitting vs protection factor of the claims and IF you have people with you.

    Your example of stone is simply wrong, its protected like anything else and still takes time to destroy.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazz View Post
    IMO that is a big part of the problem.

    There is so much vertical progression in the game that it would never pass muster in a PVP game.

    There is a damage factor of 5 between "no skill and crappy weapons" and "max skill and top weapons" and if you factor in armor and high wellness it's over 20.

    You can tell me about "player skill" whatever you want but if I do 20x as much relative damage then I'll win that "fight".

    If I was told to rebalance the game for PVP I would have to create a different balance.

    • You get XP for killing zombies but not for players. You get ego points for doing the latter...

    • All skills like Heavy Armor, Mining Tools, or Rifles go straight out the window.
      There will be no grinding skill.

    • You can buy perks from skill points but they dont have as much punch, either. No 2x damage modifier.
      Maybe +30% is manageable.

    • Weapons and parts retain QL but a QL 1 part does not have 40% but 66% of a QL 600 parts' stats.

    Much less "progression" and therefore a far more level playing field but you can still do all the things you do in the vanilla (PVE) game - with the exception of watching skill numbers go up.

    So here we go...

    There are only 2 types of games that involve players killing other players, the first type you can think of as CoD or the BF series, these have progression but its minimal and a level 1 player can quite easily kill a level 100 player, death has zero impact or penalty and there is no 'working' on your character or skills, sometimes you get a new unlock but its no big upgrade usually.

    The second type of game, and here I will use WoW as an example, has a very wide and tall progression tree where the skills and gear difference between say a level 10 and a level 100 is massive. Depending on the ruleset you may lose all your items when you die, lose experience and or time/progression. Building powerful characters in this type of game requires hard work.

    7DTD started off more like the first type of game and this was because health was capped at 100 and armour did not work and therefore some level 1 could kill you with headshot from a crossbow quite easily and there was no wellness loss so dying had no penalty, pvp was therefore not very exciting because all you would lose was your crossbow/weapon and you would suffer no other penalties.

    over time, as we got loot quality for weapons, armour and tools, as we got wellness increased to 200 (250 with perks) and perks to increase damage and reduce damage taken PVP changed to where it is today. Today (assuming vanilla settings) there is a noticeable difference between a player who has worked really hard to improve their health, armour and weapons and one who has not. Can the level 1 still kill you (with a bow now instead of a crossbow) ? well not easily no, but neither is it impossible for a skilled player who chooses the right time to attack. If you lose your high end weapon and perhaps your armour too (if playing drop all) then this can be a significant setback and if you die a lot then your wellness will get hammered.

    For me and I think most PVP players in 7DTD we dont want the COD type gameplay, we want something where your hard work makes a difference, otherwise why invest time into the game? we want to fight for the small incremental increases in power that will, eventually, make you more of a badass.

    The wonderful thing about 7DTD is its a sandbox and how YOU play PVP, right now, with the game in its current form, has consequences and if you want to bumble around picking fights you cant win (low level bow and no armour v full iron armour with a sniper rifle) then sure, you can, but the smart player picks their perks and invests their points in a way that allows them the freedom to play as they want rather than be constrained by 'hard coded' gameplay styles.

    Lastly it should absolutely not be a level playing field except that everyone has the same options and choices but if I make better decisions and play longer and smarter then I should have an advantage, this is no different to anything in real life, you work hard at something and you get good at it/richer/healthier. this is how life works, don't try and channel us into some twitch playstyle because If your pvp players want that they will go play other games that are vastly better at it such as COD and BF.

  12. #42
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    @Bloom: I really wonder whether most PvPers really want what you do in regards to progression and an unequal playing field. In theory someone might say they would like the challenge of starting on a server that is already at day 100 with most others already well established but in reality people often quit a server and never return if they die enough to reduce their wellness to 70. I think you are at the hard-core end of the spectrum in this regard.

    I think that there can be progression and grind to get mats but that they shouldn't be as long term and grindy as they are in the current vanilla game. Getting more resources for harvesting, and shortening the progression from low to max would be good IMO. Right now we have a lot of players reporting that they grind exclusively to get their skills up before they start engaging other players. Making it a faster journey to the point that typical players like to start actually PvPing would make the early game less of a chore before the "real playing" begins. Also new spawns could have a better chance of staying off the radar until they get up to a higher level if it doesn't take so long to get there.

    TLDR: The time and effort investment for getting up to speed in terms of a base, high quality weapons/ loot, and character stats is currently too long and too grindy for mass appeal PvP.

  13. #43
    Reconstructionist Poojam's Avatar
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    I agree with Bloom's posts 1000%.

    I'm certain that the five other regulars that I know of would agree as well.

    I completely disagree Roland. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The current playing field gives you a force multiplier of like 20, per Gazz's numbers. It shouldn't be 0 (a level playing field) for this game. It also shouldn't be 20 at max tiers vs lvl 1 either. If you were to keep the current skills & perks, then the force multiplier of a maxxed out player should probably be on the order of 5-10. Really though, it just takes experimentation and playtesting to find the sweetspot. The force multiplier is only a competitive advantage in open dueling though. There is a variety of weapons that need to be taken into consideration. There is also time-to-kill (lethality of weapons versus health pool) for each weapon type that should be accounted for. For example, it can be dialed in to provide noobies/stealthers an award for taking on a high level and/or geared player. Make it so that there is risk again. As of right now, the juice is never even close to being worth the squeeze unless you're high enough level to engage a maxxed out player.

    For example, I personally loved the fact that a well placed crossbow headshot on a geared player could possibly take them out in previous alphas. If you were that level 3 guy running around on your first day on an established server, there was nothing better than looting a nice purple rifle off some cocky guy killing noobs around 0,0. Now, maybe if you're 150+ wellness or are wearing a high level iron helmet, then that well placed xbow headshot can't kill in one hit. Fair enough. Risk/reward on both ends. It's these little things that need exploration and playtesting that have been lost in the game's current incarnation.

    I reject the notion that PVP needs to be a separate play mode. This would break apart the playerbase further than it already is. If you don't want to PVP, then play on a server with a PVE ruleset. I think there is plenty of room to mathematically adjust certain skill/damage/health/armor modifiers/zombie damage/zombie health to calibrate a rewarding PVE and balanced PVP experience in the same realm.

    Ultimately, each skill that rewards % armor, health, damage, and damage redux need to be ranked for effectiveness in a PVE environment and then for a PVP environment. Gazz already did the force multiplier calc for most of this already. It really just boils down that calculation to get this right, and a lot of problems people have with dueling disappear.

    I wouldn't change a thing for mining/mining progression skills/perks other than chop off the bottom 150 levels of the scale. The effectiveness at the bottom is too low. Do people really find it rewarding that it takes 20 hits to remove one layer off a surface stone? Then you level a little bit and it takes 14 hits. Won't 12 hits as a starting still be okay?

    As an aside, the tools do need to be dialed in a little better for durability pools/block damage/reward for resources required in order to reflect the material and time value of obtaining and running an auger>steel>iron>stone. I trust that legendary items will be added that are going to allow for 1-block hitting again. That was really what made steel worth it over iron in previous alphas. Need to find some other carryover point or bonus to reinforce that difference at each tool type imo. Some games do it with block debuffs against tool types. For example, stone tools can't really mine metal worth a crap. Or iron will dull more quickly on metal than steel. Things like that provide incentive for the time investment in progressing through the game.

    But back to PVP. Sound is the supreme item that needs repairing. This does not affect PVE in the slightest either. It needs to be adjusted for each audio source to make PVP happen again. Sometime in A14 they "fixed" the sound, which meant you couldn't hear augers from 7k away anymore. Fair enough, I agree. That was probably excessive. In doing that, they also extremely shortened the sound travel distance for gunshots, tool impacts, minibikes, footsteps (regardless of running or walking), beating on things, loot sounds, farting, etc. This got nerfed so far that you often can't hear someone taking a metal door down with a pickaxe on a building just 1 city block away! As a result, the pvp experience suffered because sound was what enabled people to track down and find each other. This was rewarding. It added an element of realism. It allowed for bullies. There were risks to going out and looting stuff in a town that you knew was occupied, because it meant making noise. Making noise meant possibly alerting other survivors to your presence. You had to be on guard. Some people knew the risks, and set off to live in the boonies until they could protect themselves in a fight. Some people took the risk and loot the stores to gain the advantage. Strategies evolved around your exposure level. Now that no one can hear you unless they are standing next to you, this element has been completely neutered and the low kill counts on PVP-prevalent servers are evidence of it. Many sounds need to be dialed back up some, if possible. Gunshots, minibikes, power tools, metal tools on metal objects should be audible for say 1-to-2k. Right now they carry about 250-300m. The sound you make opening a cupboard should carry about 150m, like it does currently. Running footsteps should be audible from 500m, and maybe walking footsteps 250m. When the sound range got reduced so far, the world got a whole lot bigger.

  14. #44
    Reconstructionist Poojam's Avatar
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    With regards to griefing. Land claim blocks are 10 steel. That is dirt cheap. If your base is getting demolished after they take out your claim, shame on you for only having one or two claims. Or maybe that they were visible or poorly supported.

    Now I do sympathize for the noobs out there on the raiding front. It's completely discouraging (and heartbreaking the first time) to get all your loot stolen or your base wiped out after you dump a weekend into a game and log back in to find it all gone. It takes persistence that some players just can't stomach with multiple failures to figure out how to implement base designs that effectively counter other players. I think this is something that can be improved on with education though. I think the large open world leads new players into a false sense of security. The crafting, mining, and scavenging attract a lot of players to the game that are not historically "into" pvp. Which leads to a lot of raging when they discover the harsh reality that there is more to worry about than just zombies. But maybe we can use the quest system or tool tip messaging to educate players on smarter tactics for survival from players in the same way they have been devised to get players familiar with self-survival basics? Or at least alert them to the dangers of survival.

    I'm just throwing out ideas, but maybe stuff like this could be included...

    Quest 1 - (to quote Bloom) - "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" Tool tips that informs the player of being raided online/offline. Other survivors will steal from you if they get the chance. Play this narrative into the lore of the game!
    Quest 2 - "Hide your stash" Maybe this is just a series of tool tips like "hide your stash under walls, behind cupboards, in grandma's attic...."
    Quest 3 - "Stay off the beaten path" Make it simple. Inform players that you can be found and raided. Try to hide your base or devise a simple test that can be implemented within the current game framework for concealing a container or door.
    Quest 4 - "Beware of strangers" Spawns a very powerful bandit that comes after you. This is where noobs learn about bag drop
    Quest 5 - "♥♥♥♥ and Get" Create a quest to raid a grocery store and have it spawn zombies around you in doing so.
    Quest 6 - "We need a bigger boat" You have to make concrete blocks or vault doors to pass this test.

  15. #45
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Well you must not be completely disagreeing with me because I mostly said what you did but in a more general way. Whether the progression is made faster or we start people at a higher point in the current progression the effect is that people get up to speed faster which was my point. I like your thoughts on the how.

    Whether it should or should not be a separate mode is immaterial. It will be. There isn't much point debating that issue here. Even your suggestion of lopping off the bottom portion of progression and starting higher is not going to sit well with most PvE players and that is just one simple issue. We already have PvP servers and PvE servers and if PvP servers start using the PvP mode then I don't see any further fracturing of the player base.

    Really what needs to be in place are options so that servers that do want 100% level playing field can adjust how much XP is earned and where players start and end with skills and perks etc. That way it can be anything from zero penalty for dying to losing 100 hours of grinding and building for dying or anything in between.

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