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Thread: When Will the Console Version Have _______?

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    Community Moderator SylenThunder's Avatar
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    When Will the Console Version Have _______?


    Why is this sold as a finished product?

    TFP is still developing the PC game, but Telltale/IG took a14.7 and worked on porting it to the consoles. It's sold as a finished product of the a14.7 version of the game. What you have, is what was in the PC version at that time. New PC content may or may not be added to the Console version.

    "Madmole created a video explaining the PC to console porting process and what to expect going forward in regards to current and future PC features making it over to console." ~Roland
    Console Development Video
    (Source)

    Why doesn't the console have "X Y Z" that the PC version does?
    The console game is limited to certain capabilities of the console. The Unity engine requires a large amount of CPU processes for managing the voxel landscape (more on this below), and quite a bit of RAM for handling the textures. Every new item added, takes up more texture memory and CPU cycles. Eventually you reach a limit to what the system is capable of. They have to make a balance of what can be in the game, and still have it able to function. It should also be noted that even a simple game like Minecraft was trimmed down for the console release due to hardware limitations.

    Why isn't this _____ bug fixed yet?
    In order to fix bugs, you need a few things first. You have to be able to replicate it reliably. Once you can do that, you can track down the possible causes for the issue. Then you narrow it down into possible solutions for the cause. Once you've got that, you start throwing fixes at it. Once you place a fix in, it has to be tested thoroughly. Not just to see if it fixes the issue you were attempting to resolve initially, but also to test that the fix does not cause another problem somewhere else. If it doesn't fix the issue, or creates another issue, you have to start over again with step one.

    Another issue holding back bug fixes, is a lack of data provided to be able to replicate it. We've got truckloads of people complaining about bugs, but hardly anyone having the issue is reporting in the correct forum with the requested information. The lack of people providing this data hinders the ability to replicate, track, and resolve bugs. Which makes it take longer to find the bugs and get them squashed.

    Also keep in mind that just because you, or a large number of people, are having a bug; it does not mean that everyone is having the bug. It's very possible that out of half a million players, only a few hundred are having the issue.

    Why can I play _____ without an issue then, but this game just has problems?
    I hinted at this earlier, and there are a couple of posts below that have a lot more detail on it. This game basically just requires huge amounts of the limited resources that the console has available. Almost any other game you play on the console will not tax your system nearly as bad as this one does.

    You can read more about this in the following posts...
    Last edited by SylenThunder; 05-11-2017 at 01:27 PM.

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    Community Moderator SylenThunder's Avatar
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    Why do I get such low FPS on this when I can play _______ just fine at full settings?

    There are two very big reasons behind this.

    The first is the very nature of Voxel games. Rather than just displaying 2D images onto 3D planes that are fixed and don't require any additional calculations; the voxel game is constantly keeping track of position, texture, and stats for every single block in your range of view. Calculating all of this requires considerable CPU power and RAM access. The GPU is hardly utilized. (Note: The PS4 Plus and XB Scorpio did not get much of an upgrade with CPU and RAM. It was primarily the GPU they focused on, for VR and 4k. As a result, they will not significantly increase the performance of Voxel based games.)
    More on this subject in the post below.

    The second is simply optimization. The Unity engine is still fairly new as game engines go, and still being worked on. As features get added, changed, or removed, it changes the overall balance, and then things have to be optimized all over again. As they develop the engine further it is becoming more optimized, and able to perform more complex computations without requiring as many resources. Given the hardware limitations, there is an additional cap on the amount of texture memory that can be used.
    More content added to the game client, requires more texture memory. In order to make space, other textures will need to be shrunk or removed.
    Last edited by SylenThunder; 05-23-2017 at 04:07 PM.

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    Community Moderator SylenThunder's Avatar
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    What is the difference between a Voxel game, and all the other games I play?

    This is basically an article on the differences, but it goes a long way to explain why a Voxel terrain requires more system resources to calculate.

    Before Voxel games, just about everything out there is just polygons on vertexes. Polygons are easy to lay out, and overall the only real overhead you have with it depends on the size and resolution of the textures.

    Polygon technology (Most non-voxel games)

    Imagine three points in space. Join them up with lines to form a triangle, then fill that triangle in red. Congratulations, you've just rendered a polygon in the same way a graphics card does!

    Essentially, this is how polygon graphics work: joining lots of points in space (vertexes) together, and filling the space between them (polygons) with colors (textures).

    If we were to make a cube, we'd need 8 vertexes (the corners), and fill the space between them with six four-sided polygons. We never "see" vertexes – they're just the points in space, we only see the polygons between them.

    Here's a video of how texture painting on vertexes/polygons works:

    Polygon meshes are the most flexible and precise way of storing and rendering terrain. They are often used in games where precise control or advanced terrain features are needed.

    Pros:

    • Very fast: You only have to do the usual projection calculation in the vertex shader. A geometry shader isn't needed.
    • Very precise: All coordinates are store individually for each vertex, so it's possible to move them horizontally and increase mesh density in places with finer details.
    • Low memory impact: This also means the mesh will usually need less memory than a heightmap, because vertices can be more sparse in areas with less small features.
    • No artifacts: The mesh is rendered as-is, so there won't be any glitches or strange-looking borders.
    • Advanced terrain features: It's possible to leave holes and create overhangs. Tunnels are seamless.

    Cons:

    • Poor dynamic LOD: Only possible with pre-computed meshes. This will cause "jumps" when switching without additional data to map old to new vertices.
    • Not easy to modify: Finding vertices that correspond to an area that should be modified is slow.
    • Not very efficient for collision detection: Unlike in heightmaps and voxel data, the memory address for a certain location usually can't be calculated directly. This means physics and game logic that depend on the exact surface geometry will most likely run slower than with the other storage formats.


    Voxel technology (7DTD, Landmark, Minecraft, ect.)

    Voxel technology basically says: we want points in space that we can see. Voxels can be thought of as being visible points in 3d space, and are somewhat analgous to a 2-dimensional pixel.

    Additionally, voxels can contain properties in much the way vertexes do and (depending on the engine and environment) can serve to decrease graphics acceleration requirements. These advantages aren't free, though.

    Voxel terrain stores terrain data for each point in a 3D grid. This method always uses the most storage per meaningful surface detail, even if you use compression methods like sparse octrees.

    (The term "voxel engine" was often used to describe a method of ray marching terrain heightmaps common in older 3D games. This section applies only to terrain stored as voxel data.)

    Pros:

    • Continuous 3D data: Voxels are pretty much the only efficient way to store continuous data about hidden terrain features like ore veins.
    • Easy to modify: Uncompressed voxel data can be changed easily.
    • Advanced terrain features: It's possible to create overhangs. Tunnels are seamless.
    • Interesting terrain generation: Minecraft does this by overlaying noise functions and gradients with predefined terrain features (trees, dungeons).

    Cons:

    • Slow: To render voxel data, you either have to use a ray tracer or compute a mesh, for example with marching cubes (There will be artifacts). Neighboring voxel aren't independent for mesh generation and the shaders are more complicated and usually produce more complex geometry. Rendering voxel data with high LOD can be very slow.
    • Huge storage requirements: Storing voxel data uses lots of memory. It's often not practicable to load the voxel data into VRAM for this reason, as you'd have to use smaller textures to compensate for it, even on modern hardware.


    ~Source1
    ~Source2
    Last edited by SylenThunder; 05-23-2017 at 04:00 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Moderator SylenThunder's Avatar
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    Hardware Requirements and Standards

    Ok, we're not going to sit here and count cores this time. That's not really a huge deal as long as you have at least two, and almost all of these systems would have a minimum of 8.

    Some important notes about this table.
    • Clock speed is very misleading. You can have a Core 2 Duo clocking at 3.4Ghz, and an i7 clocking at 2.8Ghz. If you put them in a race, the Core 2 Duo gets completely wasted because the architecture is not nearly as efficient. It clocks faster, but it cannot clock as much.
    • GPU's are a tad similar, but a common performance rating is teraflops (TFLOP), so we'll use that as a base.
    • RAM speeds aren't as critical, though it does help. What we really care about is the quantity, because that's where the textures and such are being loaded. (It should also be noted that the X-Box RAM is equivalent in speed to the PC Min spec, and is slower than the PS4 RAM.)
    • It should also be noted that the minimum spec for the PC is the absolute minimum. The game will not likely load if you are below this, and it's questionable as to whether it will load with this. It will look like crap, and the FPS will be lucky to get above 15 or 20.
    • PC recommended specs are to achieve a mostly solid 60FPS during normal game play. Also remember, your FPS is going tank if the CPU or RAM are overtaxed, so it's not just GPU specs you care about.
    • Oh, and since I'm using Intel specs for the PC architecture, I'm going to convert the AMD Jaguar specs into the Intel equivalent. This is merely done to make the comparison easier.
      • Another point of reference, Intel Chip architecture basically goes Single Core (x86, x286, x386, x486), Dual-Core (Core 2 Duo, i3), Quad-Core (Core 2 Quad, i5 or i7 Sandy Bridge), Hexa-Core (i5, i7 Ivy Bridge). With the Dual-Core and newer, they have a set number of physical cores, that are duplicated by hyperthreading. i.e. An i7 Hexa-Core has 6 physical processing units that work effectively as 12.


    Now It's Table Time!!!

    CPU Architecture RAM GPU
    PC Minimum 2.4GHz
    2 Cores
    Intel Core 2 Duo 6 GB
    256GB/s+
    .35 TFLOP
    PC Recommended 3.0GHz
    4-12 Cores
    Intel i5-i7 12+ GB
    256GB/s+
    3-4 TFLOP
    Playstation 4 1.6GHz
    8 cores
    Intel i3 8 GB
    176GB/s+
    1.84 TFLOP
    X-Box One 1.75GHz
    8 cores
    Intel i3 8 GB
    68GB/s+
    1.31 TFLOP
    Playstation 4 Pro 2.1GHz
    8 cores
    Intel i3 8 GB
    218GB/s+
    4.2 TFLOP
    X-Box One X* 2.3GHz
    8 cores
    Intel i3 12 GB
    326GB/s+
    6 TFLOP
    *XB1-X RAM stats are only counting hardware speeds.
    It does not take into account architectural limitations slowing it down..

    As you can see in the table, the core architecture of the consoles sits in-between the minimum and recommended specs for the game. It should also be noted that the RAM is shared with the OS in all of the above systems. A standard run with moderate PC specs will use a minimum of 4.5GB RAM, and can reach as high as 12GB depending on what's going on.

    It is precisely due to these hardware limitations, that more content is not currently available on the console. In order to add more content to the console game, something will need to be taken away to free resources. Alternatively, the engine will need to be optimized more to use less CPU and RAM in the voxel calculations. It is not an easy balance to maintain.
    Last edited by SylenThunder; 09-08-2017 at 10:25 PM.

  5. #5
    Awesome Incarnate Clare's Avatar
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    Why doesn't TTG or IGS have their own forums / respond to us?

    ...Have they abandoned the console version?

    https://7daystodie.com/forums/showth...lare-ification

    Quote Originally Posted by Clare View Post
    Hi all!

    So no doubt some of you will have noticed that my title under my username has gone from "Fun Pimps Staff" to "Console Community Manager". I wanted to take this opportunity to clarify my role.

    As community manager for the console, I’m the contact between you and the Teams working on the game - TFP, TTG and IGS. Most of the time, I’m monitoring what you guys are saying and thinking about as well as helping with bug reports from the Console Bug Report section and passing on community feedback about the game to the development teams.

    Some players have commented before, that they only get a response from me, but never hear from TTG or IGS. My original title might have been a bit confusing, as it make it seem like only TFP were responding. In actual fact, while I was labeled “Fun Pimps Staff” I was really 7DTD Staff and I'm technically a representative of the console development team. So when you get a response from me, it's a response from the console team as a whole as I am working on their behalf. So TTG and IGS are not ignoring console players or shifting responsibility - they are actually here, via me. Believe me, we discuss lots of bug and issues information, as well as regular updates on the community as a whole on a daily basis. We’re highly engaged as we really care about the game and what you guys think.

    We wanted to keep this community together, rather than splitting it up, so adding a console section to the already established forums made the most sense. Some of you play Console and PC, some just one or the other but we're all in here enjoying the game together. This is why Console Support is being run from here. Not only can you report issues directly to me, but you're also posting publicly - I can't even count the number of times this community has gathered together on a bug and shared all their information to help squash it. We are very thankful for this! There's also a group of regulars (you know who you are) who help spread what they know when I'm not around - even about bugs they've never had! This is an awesome community and I wouldn't have it any other way.

    So, the following places, which some players have already contacted, will redirect here to the forum: IGS, TTG, TFP, Facebook Twitter and Reddit. This is where Support is run from and this is where I am. I wanted to be able to respond to everyone in time and not miss anything as well as keep all information public.

    I hope this clears up some confusion that's been floating around and if you have any questions I'll be happy to answer as best I can.

    Clare
    Last edited by SylenThunder; 05-11-2017 at 12:09 AM.

  6. #6
    Awesome Incarnate Clare's Avatar
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    Extrapolated From Another Discussion

    Note from SylenThunder: This post, and the quotes added within, were extracted from another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damselx1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by THEBIGBOMB View Post
    Why does almost every thread become helpful, then salty, then off topic, then salty again, and finally a possible closed thread. This thread is at the off topic-ish part. Weird coincidence isn't it?
    I think that's just the nature of conversation, to jump topics.
    Before this is closed for being off topic I wanted to make something clear to dispel any misconceptions some players may have.

    Granted Damselx1 already beat me to it, but I want you to hear it from me too.

    We DO appreciate any information players give us when they experience a bug and decide to report it.
    We DO NOT consider our players testers.
    We DO NOT use our players as testers for us.

    Players are entitled to have an opinion about the game be it positive or negative and are welcome to give feedback about the game, be it positive or negative so long as it conforms to the forum rules (post in a civil manner etc).

    The Console Bug Reports section is where you can go to report any error you have seen. This may be something we are already aware of or something we might not have seen before (very possible - this game and the variations of play style are huge). When you do report issues, we simply ask that you give us as much information as possible so we can help fix the bug, for you, the player. If it's something we are already aware of, I might have a workaround I can help you with. My aim here is to help people. It is very difficult to do that if I do not have all the info I need, so I ask for it. Players are not obliged to give me the info, it is entirely up to them. The more I have the faster I can work through a bug and get it fixed. I understand players aren't happy about doing that and sometimes players just need to vent. This is fine, so long as the workflow for bugs is understood.

    Clare
    Last edited by SylenThunder; 06-02-2017 at 10:46 AM.

  7. #7
    Community Moderator SylenThunder's Avatar
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    Updated the XB1-X data to the latest information released by Microsoft. It is important to note that the speed they claim for the RAM, is not the actual throughput on the console. It's known that the new memory architecture in the X slows down the processing of the RAM.

    A few other things to take note of:

    • The abysmal speeds of the earlier XB1 are a bit misleading. Microsoft boosted those by having a 32MB super-fast cache of 219 GB/s that acted as a buffer for the RAM. While that helps to speed it up some, it's not as much as they'd like you to think.
    • The PS4 uses a similar 32MB cache. It's estimated that these caches increase the data access rates of the RAM by about 40%.
    • The PS4 Pro was granted an additional 1GB of ram for non-gaming uses such as multi-tasking. It's slow DRAM, so it doesn't really offer anything other than taking some overhead from the system off the system RAM.


    Lastly, just to re-iterate this, in case the above spec sheet wasn't enough...
    7DTD on the console will benefit very little from the PS4 Pro and the XB1-X.
    In my humble opinion, the only reason to purchase either of these is for VR, or 4k gaming. Both of those markets are still in their baby stages.

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