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Thread: Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

  1. #7681
    Community Moderator SylenThunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppycur View Post
    Spoiler: 



    Sorry, but I'm in total disagreement here... Extending modding support to an unfinished product is a huge waste of time.

    Yes, it's harder on modders... But that's they price they/we pay for getting a foot in the door before the door is even finished.
    On this note, I love it when I have to completely redesign my mods for a new update. It always brings about new ideas and changes. Sometimes it leads me off down a different path entirely and I come up with something completely new.

    I won't deny it's hard on us though. Sometimes I'll spend the first couple of weeks after an update doing nothing but looking at three screens full of xml data. I have less free time now, so that just means it's longer until my players get the mods they want on my servers. Which is fine, since I'll let them play in Vanilla with CM until I get it done and re-wipe the servers.

  2. #7682
    Hunter ParaSyt's Avatar
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    Okay TFP... This overhauled buff system and overhauled ranged weapon system, the mocap for looking up and down, the cool group quests, the health bar, and the new ragdoll. You can show us the Bandits and NPCs working now. What else is there to do to them if not? Are you giving them the AI and pathing of the Predator? You getting Troy Baker in there to finish all the voice acting? Making a complex faction system similar to a bunch of college kids on a reality contest show?

  3. #7683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    Funny thing ... I almost never used weapons in this game beyond the bow/crossbow and clubs. Then again, i get bored with the content after 7 or 14 days in-game.

    The artificial limitations make it feel out if place.

    The vanilla content is lacking. Mods that add content, keep running into performance issues because for some god awful reason the game loads the massive XML files for each item, making any mods that add a lot of content lag in the menu's.

    There are a lot of good mods out there and where i am sure the developers will be more then happy to contribute code and content to the game for free but it feels like the developers never want to accept this. And take notice how a lot of the mods come down to adding more content, making longer game play, balancing the developers there changes ...

    Instead of big changes that force every mod author again to rewrite there mods almost from zero with every alpha update ( what becomes tiring for those people ), how about stabilizing the game and using extended content. Nobody asked to remove the gun parts and yet here we are again. Gun modifiers can have been added on top.

    Sorry to sound dramatic but it feels always like one step forwards and two step backwards when it comes down to the game content / possibilities. As the author of the Ravenhearst mod said (paraphrased): If you do not give people a reason to loot buildings, they never leave there base.

    Ravenhearst, True survival, etc all those mods add more content with more steps. It means you pick more the skills that matter. A bigger inventory also helps with more content. You feel more logic in the game. Why can a stone arrow only need a stone + wood + feather? It makes no sense... Stone arrow = stick + feather + stone arrow head. Check. The vanilla game so simplifies everything its annoying.

    The game loot is simply useless. It never feels like you get anything worthwhile beyond the first 2 or 3 days from looting. Electricity is so limited compared to what the mods did in the past. Farming the same. Loot content, gain. There is simply no mid or end content, the moment you peak past the vale and realize it, it becomes a boring game.

    Why not have loot that has use? Put in a LOT of random loot.

    Dolls -> scrap plastic.
    Clothing -> Cloth or leather strips ( leader jacket ) or plastic strips ( plastic raincoat )...
    Cabinets -> Forks, knifes, Spoons -> scrap iron, wood spoons -> wood, Pans and cooking pots -> iron ...

    Now everything one loots in a object is at best a mix of 10 items and its just silly.

    Reduce the iron from stones! Make underground digging harder! People will loot more as results, go more outside. They will break down houses because of the scraps. Now everybody becomes a frigging surface or underground miner in the end because its the most lazy and easy way.

    Scrap items need more then one return type. Leader jacket gives leader strips and 1 iron ( zipper )... Scrap in the field give you less resources then at home with tools. Give people more inventory space to compensate... Make them hunt and feel like the building and POIs are worth something beyond the first few days.

    This whole "dungeon hunting POI" and bosses content that is getting added to A17 is just silly. It does not solve the real issue that you end content is simply the same crappy loot as before.

    No offence but adding gun modifiers is not going to solve the issue of lacking content, especially when you just removed one mechanism to add a new one. 1 + 0 = 1 ...


    The Behemoth got removed ... replace it with a mechanic with a sled hammer ( see Ravenhearst again ) that is great at knocking down buildings and has massive HP.

    Cooking skills are useless... there is no content again. Armor making skills, who cares ... clothing skills again ... When the game is about the finding, looting, scrapping content and then creating better armor, clothing, weapons it can become a slower and move active game. But currently everybody ends up with using maybe 5 skills in total that they focus upon because those are the money makers, the rest is ...

    The entire games content system is so cut down ...

    Well, this is my monthly rant. The game has so much possibilities thanks to the game engine but it feels so wasted in the actual content.

    Things need to change it may seem like a hassle for modders, however the way things are being done now is to ensure a system that wont be hard coded and be flexible for modders and for the pimps to add new content in the future.

  4. #7684
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaSyt View Post
    Okay TFP... This overhauled buff system and overhauled ranged weapon system, the mocap for looking up and down, the cool group quests, the health bar, and the new ragdoll. You can show us the Bandits and NPCs working now. What else is there to do to them if not? Are you giving them the AI and pathing of the Predator? You getting Troy Baker in there to finish all the voice acting? Making a complex faction system similar to a bunch of college kids on a reality contest show?

    I think the issue with bandits and npc's is the amount of resources required, its the same deal with animal farms its just not possible for the server to handle that many npc's at once if they keep farming them like minecraft. I think they would need to improve the performance per zombie/npc before adding them into the game and having them roam around because the game is voxel based, AI has to be rather taxing to be able to complete task intelligently with a ever changing environment, which in terns take alot of resources. I think the pimps tried to help this by implementing the breadcrumb system but that has been delayed.
    Last edited by Spiral; 01-03-2018 at 12:55 AM.

  5. #7685
    Guppycurian Forum Whore Guppycur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinyajuu View Post
    It's almost like I read the forums regularly.
    But... But... Devs don't listen, and they sure don't read our feedback!

  6. #7686
    Colony Founder The Gronk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    I think the issue with bandits and npc's is the amount of resources required, its the same deal with animal farms its just not possible for the server to handle that many npc's at once if they keep farming them like minecraft. I think they would need to improve the performance per zombie/npc before adding them into the game and having them roam around because the game is voxel based, AI has to be rather taxing to be able to complete task intelligently with a ever changing environment, which in terns take alot of resources. I think the pimps tried to help this by implementing the breadcrumb system but that has been delayed.
    The last I remember hearing all Z's were to be tracked individually in the metadata allowing for persistent hordes although this is likely to be a "light" version of the Z data I don't think that the number of NPC's is that much of an issue unless they're rendered in the local area.

    My guess for farming would be that they want the player to leave their base and actually go out hunting. There are plenty of ways to do animal farming without breaking the computer, how much AI does a chicken actually need?

    Unless TFP are actually changing the current pathfinding algorithm the only real work to do on bandits is mecanim animation and military tactics meta-behavior, the bandits really should work as a team if they're to be any sort of challenge. That being said, even that is a lot of work.

  7. #7687
    Hunter ParaSyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    Funny thing ... I almost never used weapons in this game beyond the bow/crossbow and clubs. Then again, i get bored with the content after 7 or 14 days in-game.
    What do you mean by content exactly? Just because you don't use the guns doesn't mean everyone else doesn't enjoy them. You seem to be limiting your self then complain about not having enough choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    The vanilla content is lacking. Mods that add content, keep running into performance issues because for some god awful reason the game loads the massive XML files for each item, making any mods that add a lot of content lag in the menu's.
    Adding a bunch of new "content" to a game makes it run slower. Do you want the game to have more "content" or to run better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    There are a lot of good mods out there and where i am sure the developers will be more then happy to contribute code and content to the game for free but it feels like the developers never want to accept this. And take notice how a lot of the mods come down to adding more content, making longer game play, balancing the developers there changes ...
    TFP have expressed that they have their own vision for the game. And that is okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    Instead of big changes that force every mod author again to rewrite there mods almost from zero with every alpha update ( what becomes tiring for those people ), how about stabilizing the game and using extended content. Nobody asked to remove the gun parts and yet here we are again. Gun modifiers can have been added on top.
    Alpha is for adding content, Beta is for stabilizing. They are removing gun parts and replacing them with gun attachments. I kinda did ask for this in a pimp dreams thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    Sorry to sound dramatic but it feels always like one step forwards and two step backwards when it comes down to the game content / possibilities. As the author of the Ravenhearst mod said (paraphrased): If you do not give people a reason to loot buildings, they never leave there base.
    Again what do you mean by content? How are any of the things on the A17 Features List not content? They are adding more dungeon crawler POIs with bosses and quest. How do that not give someone a reason to loot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    Why can a stone arrow only need a stone + wood + feather? It makes no sense... Stone arrow = stick + feather + stone arrow head. Check. The vanilla game so simplifies everything its annoying.
    It doesn't need to be that complex. It's a game. Also adding more things like sticks and arrowheads slows the game down when it doesn't need to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    The game loot is simply useless. It never feels like you get anything worthwhile beyond the first 2 or 3 days from looting. Electricity is so limited compared to what the mods did in the past. Farming the same. Loot content, gain. There is simply no mid or end content, the moment you peak past the vale and realize it, it becomes a boring game.
    I think you are exaggerating a little there. I always feel there is better loot to look for or at lest more of it like ammo. Now you are just using the word "content" as a filler word. I have no idea what that last sentence is suppose to mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    Why not have loot that has use? Put in a LOT of random loot.

    Dolls -> scrap plastic.
    Clothing -> Cloth or leather strips ( leader jacket ) or plastic strips ( plastic raincoat )...
    Cabinets -> Forks, knifes, Spoons -> scrap iron, wood spoons -> wood, Pans and cooking pots -> iron ...
    That sounds like unnecessary filler. Again it would slow the game down. All the loot in the game now does have a use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    Reduce the iron from stones! Make underground digging harder! People will loot more as results, go more outside. They will break down houses because of the scraps. Now everybody becomes a frigging surface or underground miner in the end because its the most lazy and easy way.
    Looting doesn't have to be the main or only thing to do in this game. I mostly mine to get Nitrite Powder and Lead. It doesn't seem lazy when it's hard to find.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    Give people more inventory space to compensate... Make them hunt and feel like the building and POIs are worth something beyond the first few days.
    I would like more inventory space, but it would not make someone hunt more. It would be less because they don't have to go to their base and drop stuff off as often. The towers can be three to four trips.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    This whole "dungeon hunting POI" and bosses content that is getting added to A17 is just silly. It does not solve the real issue that you end content is simply the same crappy loot as before.
    You want people to have a reason to go to POIs but you don't like them to take long at the POIs or have difficulty? What do you want for end content, a shiny new car... oh wait those will be in A17.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    No offence but adding gun modifiers is not going to solve the issue of lacking content, especially when you just removed one mechanism to add a new one. 1 + 0 = 1 ...
    They are replacing the gun parts that didn't seem like they did anything, for gun attachments which will clearly do something. Would you rather have 0 + 0 = 0?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    The Behemoth got removed ... replace it with a mechanic with a sled hammer ( see Ravenhearst again ) that is great at knocking down buildings and has massive HP.
    They are removing the Behemoth because it didn't fit or work well into the environment. They are going to have more man size bosses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjiro View Post
    Cooking skills are useless... there is no content again. Armor making skills, who cares ... clothing skills again ... When the game is about the finding, looting, scrapping content and then creating better armor, clothing, weapons it can become a slower and move active game. But currently everybody ends up with using maybe 5 skills in total that they focus upon because those are the money makers, the rest is ...
    I like the cooking system. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY CONTENT!.....Oh I see, you seem really fixated on loot, and seem think this is Borderlands. I like Borderlands, one of my fav games, but this is a zombie survival crafting game. It's gonna have cooking and armor crafting. If you don't like it then there's Borderlands.

  8. #7688
    Fun Pimps Staff Gazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    Things need to change it may seem like a hassle for modders, however the way things are being done now is to ensure a system that wont be hard coded and be flexible for modders and for the pimps to add new content in the future.
    Modders aren't complaining.
    You guys may get the pre-built and glued-together LEGO castle. They are getting the box of LEGOS it was built from.


    And I see Kinyajuu is still using this fake old profile picture.
    Last edited by Gazz; 01-03-2018 at 01:44 AM.

  9. #7689
    Colony Founder Laz Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinyajuu View Post
    We're much more quiet for A17 because a lot of the changes going in are system changes that let game features talk to each other, until the new content is created in XML for the new setup, there just isn't much to show. (That and I need to get into the UI bits on it and clean them up)



    The reason some things got overhauled was because I was tasked with redesigning the item modifiers, progression/skills, buffs then making them all able to touch each other.

    The overhaul process (Items):
    What happened is that in A17 we were bringing in a better loot loop in that even as a level 1 you'll be able to find a full gun instead of part of one. It won't have very good stats but will likely come with a mod or attachment of some sort. Removing a mod has a chance to break the weapon where an attachment can be put in and taken out at will. This changed the items to only really need 6 tiers. The tiny variations in value weren't fun and were pure vertical progression.

    This required us to be able to still use a system similar to the old one that would allow modification of values. Like the parts mods also will modify values on the item they live in. Adding this in required me to build a new central class to process the modifier values.

    The overhaul process (Ranged Weapons):
    Ranged weapons have always felt wrong to me. The crosshair spread didn't represent the cone of fire and on top of that the FOV/resolution would change accuracy. I implemented the same fire cone code that I put in for the turrets. With that the new events/effects allowed us to set up things like clip size, fire rate, accuracy kickback as well as many other things. You can basically simulate just about any weapon now via xml values.

    The overhaul process (Progression):
    With the new system we wanted to be able to have chunkier skills and perks and less of the incremental gains. With that we wanted to be able to punish the player through their progression stats via illnesses and injuries to keep things interesting. While testing I noticed the skills system made tons of garbage and we don't want that so I went in and redid it to be lightweight and to not make garbage to clean up.

    The overhaul process (Buffs):
    Finally the buffs, these guys have timers. Similar to progression, very similar. So I designed a system that was nearly identical to the new progression system. This keeps it lightweight, only storing the timer and a pointer to the single instance of that buff so there is only ever one instance of the heavy data needed. With the buffs we found that actions also needed fired off for particle effects so I started adding an action system. Also at the same time it was discovered that there would need to be requirements to keep buffs from firing something too often or to clean up after itself on login/logout. The need for this kind of cleanup added the need for "events" these started out as simply onBuffStart, onBuffUpdate, and onBuffEnd so we could do a few things but has now grown to include everything from gaining xp to placing a block.

    The overhaul process(Overall):
    So basically the needs of each area added to the effect system I initially put together for just the items, then as each system was worked on, instead of shoe-horning it in and causing even more garbage in ram, I instead opted to redesign them from the ground up knowing exactly how they'll be used at this point in our development. I left it as open as possible so we can expand in any way we want/need with little or no code support.

    So, sometimes you hit a point where you have to tear things down. Oganically growing code becomes very unwieldy the longer it exists and sometimes a rewrite is needed to encompass all the other features that came along after it.

    /data_dump
    Sounds like a great optimization plan! Info. Like this gets me excited.

  10. #7690
    Hunter ParaSyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    I think the issue with bandits and npc's is the amount of resources required, its the same deal with animal farms its just not possible for the server to handle that many npc's at once if they keep farming them like minecraft. I think they would need to improve the performance per zombie/npc before adding them into the game and having them roam around because the game is voxel based, AI has to be rather taxing to be able to complete task intelligently with a ever changing environment, which in terns take alot of resources. I think the pimps tried to help this by implementing the breadcrumb system but that has been delayed.
    Ah that makes sense. I have played with the modded bandits and NPCs but they are basically a turret with legs. It seems like they are streamlining a lot of these processes to make this happen tho. We'll see.

  11. #7691
    Tracker bayaholic's Avatar
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    @Kinyajuu:

    Thank you and TFPs. You guys are working hard and it shows. I appreciate the update. This is/was my 1st EA game that seems that it is for sure going to be finished. Another game that I liked was never finished, at least the Devs told us so, the least that they could do. I have and still will continue to play 7dtd. One of my fav games. Again thank you and TFPs.

    P.S. Make the HP bar optional. Lol

  12. #7692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamida View Post
    I noticed that too....I never saw anyone post his name and he showed up...I am beginning to think he can actually come in here whenever he wants and not have to be summoned...


    (Am talking about Kinyajuu...you don't have to mention guppys name...he just shows up everytime there is a new post...by anyone....anywhere.....anytime...)
    Guppy can hear his named being mentioned while he sleeps thru a tornado whilst his neighbour's are banging at the door asking to be let in lol.....

    Just the slight hedence to his name or his server or mods he a comes a running lol.... :-P

  13. #7693
    Guppycurian Forum Whore Guppycur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stallionsden View Post
    Guppy can hear his named being mentioned while he sleeps thru a tornado whilst his neighbour's are banging at the door asking to be let in lol.....

    Just the slight hedence to his name or his server or mods he a comes a running lol.... :-P
    Please excuse the rep's typo. Dunno what happened; some residual gusts from the tornado musta moved my fingers.

  14. #7694
    Hood Ornament Gamida's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinyajuu View Post
    It's almost like I read the forums regularly.
    could it be? Naw, that can't be it...

  15. #7695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppycur View Post
    2) The pimps should put a bit more effort in making people NOT feel like the game is abandonware... I mean sure, /we/ know that's far, far from the truth, but only because we try to know.
    How do you tell a user with no programming experience that programming is not like in the movies, when he suspects you are trying to make excuses? His own knowledge doesn't help him in assessing the information, other posters on the forum are "fanboys" to him and most likely he already heard about at least one early access failure to fear the worst.

    (After I wrote above, I remembered the other EA-game I'm following (Factorio) which actually seems to have solved that problem: They post an article called "Friday Facts" every Friday in which they really talk about high concepts and as well as programming details, even posting code! Sometimes someone writes about how he found an interesting bug or how he optimized one routine to run 2% faster. And this seems a great way to keep the community engaged and informed about progress. Not sure if that would work for 7d though)

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