View Poll Results: Alpha 17

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Thread: Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

  1. #17476
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamer1337 View Post
    i always wonder why does we need two windows with slots one just to show and one is usable. whats the point of having two if there can be just one window. slots under statistics could be usable and the slots on the left removed

    Attachment 24482
    Excellent point. When they have time to clean up UI (I think this might be more like a task for beta) this could be a low hanging fruit. The main advantage would be the (noticable) time saved to bring up that window. Also the "assemble" command could be removed completely.

  2. #17477
    Beloved Curmudgeon DaVegaNL's Avatar
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    Guys. You are 'fighting' over something which hasn't even come out yet. Let's see how it works when A17 is released around Halloween.



    Hmm. That felt weird. That's usually one of the arguments used against me.

    Ps. No matter how difficult the developers will make the AI, players will always find a way to exploit it.

  3. #17478
    Leader Aldranon's Avatar
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    In a game, I hate wasting any resources: The very opposite of my RL behavior.

    Of course, throw a real apocalypse at me and I might start saving sandwich bags and lint! The lint goes in the bags, duh!

  4. #17479
    Hood Ornament Gamida's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    All of you who are lamenting how easy it will be to exploit the AI have only your own selves to blame for reading up on how it works. I reject that players who are not in the know would eventually learn to build double thickness on three sides and single thickness on the fourth. That way of building is so outside what is intuitive that the only people who do that are those who have learned how the AI works and are using that knowledge to their advantage (or they were clued in by friends who know).

    infoinfoinfoinfoinfo......
    Is that how they will work? You can build 3 walls of concrete 5 blocks thick and a single wall of concrete blocks and they will know to go for the single block side?
    I was thinking they would go for an individual block that was weaker (maybe from previous damage or of lower durability material such as wood) no matter where it was.

    Would they only go for the outside wall?
    If I made a base with a double wall of concrete blocks on 4 sides and but on west wall I put one wood block in center of inside wall, will they go for that wooden block?

    Just some things that popped into my head. Apparently driving out things like where I left my wallet and if you don't breath it is not good...

  5. #17480
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamida View Post
    Is that how they will work? You can build 3 walls of concrete 5 blocks thick and a single wall of concrete blocks and they will know to go for the single block side?
    I was thinking they would go for an individual block that was weaker (maybe from previous damage or of lower durability material such as wood) no matter where it was.

    Would they only go for the outside wall?
    If I made a base with a double wall of concrete blocks on 4 sides and but on west wall I put one wood block in center of inside wall, will they go for that wooden block?

    Just some things that popped into my head. Apparently driving out things like where I left my wallet and if you don't breath it is not good...
    Maybe if your base was 3x3 and only predictably until faatal adds in his advanced features...

  6. #17481
    Leader Aldranon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamida View Post
    Just some things that popped into my head. Apparently driving out things like where I left my wallet and if you don't breath it is not good...
    I think we have the same DNA! I forgot I left my 7d2d character online until he lost over 80 wellness, but he didn't die! Is that a bug?

    I'm already testing my A17 fort:
    Attachment 24483
    I assume the new zombies are smart enough to read so will ignore the 6 shotgun turrets on the right side that will be shooting them in the head!

    And the mother of my ideas is my A16/A17 complex of various buildings. The one in the front is my A17 test building.
    Attachment 24484

  7. #17482
    Inventor toores's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    All of you who are lamenting how easy it will be to exploit the AI have only your own selves to blame for reading up on how it works. I reject that players who are not in the know would eventually learn to build double thickness on three sides and single thickness on the fourth. That way of building is so outside what is intuitive that the only people who do that are those who have learned how the AI works and are using that knowledge to their advantage (or they were clued in by friends who know).
    Dude, it's not going to be some profound secret. Players will find out easily that if they only managed to upgrade half of the wall before the horde night started, zoumbies attacked the other half.
    And once you find that out, it don't need to be intuitive. You'll just have to accept that thats how zombies think in 7d2d.

    That being said, faatal has repeatedly said that he is working on basics and core for now and will add advanced features second but all of you are acting as if the basic AI features he has revealed are the whole sum of what you will face. Perhaps in A17 that will be true but faatal has distinctly mentioned he is a fan of randomness in zombie behavior and that he will be working in features to make them less predictable but that these are advanced features that will be added in zombie AI 2.0
    I'm counting on it to get more advanced , I have no doupt in Faatal's competence.
    (and of course I have limited information on the topic, so my thought are just based on what i know)

    Finally, in regards to pathing, faatal has also said that there will be a limited range in how the pathing calculates the optimal path. Aldranon's idea of two separate bases sound to me like they would be beyond the range of the pathing algorithm to really work unless the bases are right next to each other and really really small. Even the one base with three sides double thickness and one side single thickness probably won't work unless you are talking about a very small base. In most cases zombies coming from a direction will stay on that side of your base hitting the weakest blocks on that side and not detecting blocks on the other side of your base unless your base is small enough to be in the range of their pathing.
    That is good to hear. (must have missed that bit)

    So please remember that no AI is going to be smarter than human ingenuity and you only have yourself to blame if you spoil it for yourself by following the AI development so closely that you know how to beat it before ever booting up A17 and also that the first iteration is basics and faatal has advanced features planned that will help obfuscate and randomize zombie behavior so that they are not quite as predictable as what many of you are planning on (again provided you aren't using your early access privileges to fully analyze and overcome the AI before ever experiencing it ingame).
    If i had some videos form MM, I might not be "following the AI development so closely". I'll take whatever fix i can
    Last edited by toores; 05-14-2018 at 03:35 PM.

  8. #17483
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    With all thistalk about wall building and zombies seeking weak points. I would like to remind players that

    It really IS all about you

    When zombies attack, they don't care about loot or moats of spikes or anything like that. They only care about one thing. Getting to the food. So unless there is a dear near by they are coming after you.

    You are the ONE target that they seek and the one best asset to lure them to there destruction.

    So if you have a door or other block that is going to give way on one side of the fort, the best thing to do is to move to the other side. There is a very good chance that the things will stop pounding on that door and go around to were you are. Moving through log spikes and other traps while doing so.

    This is because while zombies take the path of least resistance they also the shortest path. If you move away. You will be too far from them and will move to the other side to get closer.
    Last edited by sillls; 05-14-2018 at 03:44 PM.

  9. #17484
    Inventor toores's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaVegaNL View Post
    Guys. You are 'fighting' over something which hasn't even come out yet. Let's see how it works when A17 is released around Halloween.



    Hmm. That felt weird. That's usually one of the arguments used against me.
    Haha

  10. #17485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubo View Post
    There's a few good laughs right there (the visual) lol.

    Actually, I'd like to do the opposite! I picked up some great tips from the mod-pros in my travels here. I'm just a beginner but would like to have a go at fixing myself up a pve animals-only game
    Is the Mod called '7 Days to be Eaten?'

  11. #17486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldranon View Post
    Well, the Zombie AI is a bit artificial in the first place and by exaggerating a weakness in it, I would call it an exploit. If the word "exploit" offends, call it "Playing the AI and not the game".
    I see your point, but im sorry man, its not an exploit or "playing the AI and not the game." It's just strategy, otherwise any defense you set up is an exploit or "playing the AI and not the game" because on horde nights, they come for you, wherever you are, so you bait them to the strength of your defense.

    plus, this is all theory until A17 drops and we can start taming bears & wolves to zipline to the front lines and fight the army of behemoths, we're all just theorycrafting

  12. #17487
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toores View Post
    Dude, it's not going to be some profound secret.
    You are speaking from your own experience with 100s or perhaps 1000s of hours with the game. Based on the number of people who ask for help in this forum, in youtube comments, and in the ingame chat, the secret of the current much more simplistic AI is a pretty profound secret to the average new player who hasn't read a scrap of any Developer Diary information and is frustrated trying to survive past the first few days let alone the first blood moon horde.

    I never said that players won't discover patterns and tendencies of the zombies. Of course they will and that is perfectly fine. Its also fine to use that knowledge against them. If smearing guts on your face was discovered to make you invisible to the zombies then people would use that and it wouldn't be an exploit-- just a very powerful stealth strategy.

    I'm just talking to those who are reading faatal's progress notes and then complaining that it is going to be too easy and too exploitable. It drives home the point that being an early access backer is different than being a simple customer wanting to play a cool zombie game. You can't have it both ways. Either you follow development and know things the average player wouldn't know and would have to discover through playing and trial and error or you avoid this place and play the game with fresh eyes.

    Of course for those of us who have already put in thousands of hours, truly fresh eyes are probably unattainable simply because the game will never be so different than what we have already experienced that we can't apply all that experience to the new iteration and not be successful. Maybe a few hours of adapting but not that much more...

  13. #17488
    Guppycurian Forum Whore Guppycur's Avatar
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    Knowing that zombies attacked doors made me stop using doors... not like they were useful anyway. So I agree.

  14. #17489
    Leader Aldranon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    You are speaking from your own experience with 100s or perhaps 1000s of hours with the game. Based on the number of people who ask for help in this forum, in youtube comments, and in the ingame chat, the secret of the current much more simplistic AI is a pretty profound secret to the average new player who hasn't read a scrap of any Developer Diary information and is frustrated trying to survive past the first few days let alone the first blood moon horde.

    I never said that players won't discover patterns and tendencies of the zombies. Of course they will and that is perfectly fine. Its also fine to use that knowledge against them. If smearing guts on your face was discovered to make you invisible to the zombies then people would use that and it wouldn't be an exploit-- just a very powerful stealth strategy.

    I'm just talking to those who are reading faatal's progress notes and then complaining that it is going to be too easy and too exploitable. It drives home the point that being an early access backer is different than being a simple customer wanting to play a cool zombie game. You can't have it both ways. Either you follow development and know things the average player wouldn't know and would have to discover through playing and trial and error or you avoid this place and play the game with fresh eyes.

    Of course for those of us who have already put in thousands of hours, truly fresh eyes are probably unattainable simply because the game will never be so different than what we have already experienced that we can't apply all that experience to the new iteration and not be successful. Maybe a few hours of adapting but not that much more...
    I don't think it will be too easy. I don't play the game for the Night Horde Defense, not because it wouldn't be fun, but because I cant generate enough resources to engage the night horde zombies and continue playing the way I do in the daytime.

    I currently am trying to get enough bones for shotgun ammo by starting up 8 forges and constantly fighting the Screamer Hordes. I can get a lot of bones, so I MIGHT be able to play with shotgun turrets in A17. Its just during late game when base defense becomes pointless. Too many bullet sponges.

  15. #17490
    Ranger Cazmyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppycur View Post
    Knowing that zombies attacked doors made me stop using doors... not like they were useful anyway. So I agree.
    I agree.

    When I found out that they attack doors none of my bases now have doors. I dig an underground tunnel to access the base.

    -Added-

    And that is totally on me. I do not expect the game to change in anyway to stop that.
    Last edited by Cazmyr; 05-14-2018 at 05:19 PM.

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