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Thread: Underground safety

  1. #316
    Leader Aldranon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zvex View Post
    Right now the limiting factor could be a radiation suit, like it is in Wasteland 2 - without radsuit you can't move further. So, the initial map could become much smaller, and when you get the radsuit - you are able to travel through global travel map. Each global POI could have its own map. And on the global map hordes could be moving in a form of units, with fights in fields, fortress sieges, etc., etc.

    I doubt that it will become true for 7DTD in any observable future . Right now the goal is to make lonewolf survival game with tower defense elements, and some npcs/bandits.
    I hope TFP see your post, its very doable once NPC AI is polished.

    That should be a A17-18 scope, I would hope. Once they get the new framework working well, they can start hitting the content (or lack of) hard. Doesn't matter if its a DLC or not. I've owned all the "Hearts of Iron" series and bought almost all their DLC's. Its how the company stays afloat.
    Last edited by Aldranon; 02-09-2018 at 12:40 PM.

  2. #317
    Community Moderator OzHawkeye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zvex View Post
    I have tired of role playing the survival by limiting myself, tired of artificial challenge. It feels unnatural and not intuitive. The game mechanics should define the restrictions that are applied to the gameplay, it shouldn't be done by a player by default.
    The problem with that Zvex, is limiting player choice. Some people just like being underground to avoid threats. I think, where at all possible, TFP should "live and let live" and let 'em do that. If you find underground bases too boring/easy/whatever, then there has to be at least SOME element of personal responsibility in then choosing not to build there I think.

  3. #318
    Leader Aldranon's Avatar
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    I would add the obvious, that there is no content or plot right now, so the player IS required to make up their own content and plot.
    So not staying underground all night is currently up to the player to imagine up some reason not to.

    Having TFP make up some stop-gap mechanics that would end up going against a bigger plot/story-line they have in mind (I'm guessing here) is a waste of their effort and something they will not do.

    I can imagine we will see environmental hazards for sure, if it's a DLC or not is a MM question.
    Last edited by Aldranon; 02-09-2018 at 02:08 PM.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzHawkeye View Post
    The problem with that Zvex, is limiting player choice. Some people just like being underground to avoid threats. I think, where at all possible, TFP should "live and let live" and let 'em do that. If you find underground bases too boring/easy/whatever, then there has to be at least SOME element of personal responsibility in then choosing not to build there I think.
    As I have said before - the best thing would be different gaming modes. So a player would still had his choice, which would be done through selecting a different mode. So if you want a sandbox game with almost no restrictions and much less content - you could choose that.
    Last edited by Zvex; 02-09-2018 at 02:28 PM.

  5. #320
    Hunter Mikee's Avatar
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    awesome ideas. sounds like A20 in 2019 Q4.

  6. #321
    Ranger Minandreas's Avatar
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    Another one of these threads huh?

    I don't understand why the most immersive and natural solution always seems to get overlooked... We no longer have the issue of any more than 7 zombies loaded at once causing computer seizures. There can be plenty. And better AI should be coming down the pipeline. The threat of living underground should come from simple zombie buildup. If you're bunkered underground you aren't dealing with the zombies. So they should keep massing nearby trying to find you/the heat source. Make it so if enough time goes by, these searching zombies go feral as they get hungry and fail to find their meal. They become far more alert and harder to sneak by, sprint during daytime, hit harder, etc. So the risk with hiding underground is that when you DO inevitably have to go topside for supplies, you will have a horde of feral zombies at your heels that would have been much easier to deal with if you had just been topside to begin with and culling their numbers as they came; when they were slow moving and weak.

    It would be possible to play around this still, which is a good thing, but it would be much riskier and even make for a significantly different play experience. One where every trip topside is like going out at night (or how I imagine going out at night is MEANT to be). Tense. Dangerous. You'd want to invest heavily in stealth skills and the like to sneak out of your bunker and return undetected by the feral horde. Because if they DO spot you, they will be sprinting feral heat seeking missiles and follow you to whatever entrance you came out of, smash the hatch/door/whatever, and start flooding in to your bunker.

    The goal shouldn't be to crush the underground playstyle and make it completely nonviable (Hence their not doing digging zombies). The goal is to make living underground have its own risks. Risks that can be mitigated with smart play. Because that's good gameplay. The reason it is seen as an issue to many right now is that there is really no risk to it at all.

  7. #322
    Zombie Hunter legionpete's Avatar
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    Only issue with the zombie build up is players can just logoff for 10 minutes or so.. come back and the clean up will remove the zombies... easy enough to get rid of. As an alternative, maybe the infection disease should become airborne should the zombies be allowed to congregate in an area too long with out killing them. Allow it to affect blocks going up and down. A cool down timer could be active where the antidote is ineffective so long as the player stays in the infected zone. If a player logs off while they are in the infected zone. the timer stops and goes with them. When the log back in.. their infected state starts again and zombies are drawn back into the area. Could even maybe have a zombie type that that sprays the disease instead of it being xnumber of zombies.

  8. #323
    Reconstructionist A Nice Cup of Tea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldranon View Post
    Those are fun looking forts, it would be enjoyable to have one.

    Instead of using full blocks for pillars, try using 4 concrete poles positioned to look like one larger pole. It has 4 times the strength and a forth of the size of a full block.
    Quote Originally Posted by A Nice Cup of Tea View Post
    If zombies who have detected you would attack stilts if they couldn't get to you rather than simply circling underneath you; yet a stilt base was still useful against wandering hordes that haven't detected you (they wouldn't get "stuck" against it but would simply walk straight through and out the other side) then that would be the ideal situation, as far as I am concerned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    ^^ yes. I didnít say it explicitly but I meant only zombies that had you in hunted status would go berserk and attack all the blocks around where you were standing if they couldnít reach you. If you were undetected they would path around and move on. So that would be blood hordes and any time you flubbed up and got yourself detected.
    Well, in my latest game (actually "our latest game" since it's a co-op game) we've got an above-ground stilt base using poles and it does seem to be working perfectly. We're building a separate structure for Blood Moon nights, but the stilted base means that we're high enough up* that normal wandering hordes don't detect us and the thin stilts made of four poles back-to-back mean that they don't get stuck on them and they wander straight through and out the other side.

    It's nice to be above ground once more.



    *We've built it on flat ground in a town, and the stilts are four metres (a block is a metre cube, yes?) high with a platform on top. We've a ramp and jump to get on to the platform. Then above that the stilts go up another four metres and the base is on top of there. There's a ladder going up from the platform through the base's floor, but the base has no doors other than that hatch. It will have glass windows once we've got a forge going (we're only on day four and we've had to take time out to find antibiotics to cure the infection that a vulture gave two of the three of us, so we haven't made a forge yet) and a roof that overhangs by two blocks so that the rain and snow doesn't come in through the windows. This means that we're walking around inside a building at least (the building has two floors) 10m from the ground, and that seems to be enough for zombies not to detect us. The whole thing looks quite a lot like the water towers that you see around. It's currently made of wood, but we'll be incrementally upgrading it as we go along, of course.

  9. #324
    Ranger Minandreas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legionpete View Post
    Only issue with the zombie build up is players can just logoff for 10 minutes or so.. come back and the clean up will remove the zombies... easy enough to get rid of.
    I'm assuming they'd be able to pull off saving the presence of those zombies. Likely not exact locations. But the fact that they exist. There are 10 zombies, 8 of which are ferral, that are after the player. Save that. They can spawn wherever and roam their way back or something.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzHawkeye View Post
    The problem with that Zvex, is limiting player choice. Some people just like being underground to avoid threats. I think, where at all possible, TFP should "live and let live" and let 'em do that. If you find underground bases too boring/easy/whatever, then there has to be at least SOME element of personal responsibility in then choosing not to build there I think.
    I think the underground player might be misunderstood. I don't think that going underground is a thing of hiding yourself by design.
    There are several reasons to go underground. And because of that there is a reason to put up underground content. This content shall be based on rewards, penalities and threats, like any other area of the game has aswell.

    If it's for me i don't want any zombies underground. Not because I am afraid of zombies, but I don't trust the AI and spawning to follow me properly.
    The idea of flooding sounds also very nice to me as it makes every block quite dangerous for mining and forces a player to take precaution, but enables an otion to search for underground water for using it as e.g. water source.

    Low Oxygen could also be nice. Its like being underwater, but with a much longer period. By this people cannot live underground for eternity downstairs, but have to get up 1-2 a day or maybe find something cool like an oxygen mask.

    I don't think that such things make anybody unhappy. It's more likely that people start getting creative around such things, unless they focus only on punishing people, such as events that only trigger when a player is underground.

  11. #326
    Community Moderator OzHawkeye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolgfred View Post
    I think the underground player might be misunderstood. I don't think that going underground is a thing of hiding yourself by design.
    There are several reasons to go underground. And because of that there is a reason to put up underground content. This content shall be based on rewards, penalities and threats, like any other area of the game has aswell.

    If it's for me i don't want any zombies underground. Not because I am afraid of zombies, but I don't trust the AI and spawning to follow me properly.
    The idea of flooding sounds also very nice to me as it makes every block quite dangerous for mining and forces a player to take precaution, but enables an otion to search for underground water for using it as e.g. water source.

    Low Oxygen could also be nice. Its like being underwater, but with a much longer period. By this people cannot live underground for eternity downstairs, but have to get up 1-2 a day or maybe find something cool like an oxygen mask.

    I don't think that such things make anybody unhappy. It's more likely that people start getting creative around such things, unless they focus only on punishing people, such as events that only trigger when a player is underground.
    Apologies if I put a spin on things that wasn't intended - I'm certainly not trying to divine why anyone DOES build underground (it's hard enough for me to figure out why I do the things I do sometimes, let alone figuring out why OTHER people do the things they do - hehe).

    I'm all for making underground more interesting - be it underground POI's (such as the expanded bunkers/POI's TFP have showcased) to underground caves filled with zombies, to more interesting / complex base systems.

    What I wouldn't be (personally) in favour of is some sort of blanket ban / game mechanic that simply prevents people from building underground bases, since that detracts from what I think all games should offer - player choice.

  12. #327
    Colony Founder RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzHawkeye View Post
    What I wouldn't be (personally) in favour of is some sort of blanket ban / game mechanic that simply prevents people from building underground bases, since that detracts from what I think all games should offer - player choice.
    Nah I don't anyone here wants that, pretty much the opposite. Right now, as it has already been said, for those who don't enjoy the lack of having to survive underground, there is no choice.

    And instead of making the underground just as threatening as above ground, it might be wise for the underground living playstyle to have its own pros and cons so that the choice itself would be interesting to make.

  13. #328
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    These suggestions sound more like ways to punish players for wanting to build underground bases rather than challenge them. I mean, the whole purpose of having a sandbox game is to make it your own and have fun in your own way. There's nothing wrong with players wanting a safe place to rest or store their items. They have to go out eventually if they want to do something besides stay in their base.

    Building bases inside of skyscrapers or stilts is no different than being underground. Zombies can't reach the top and due to their lack of AI, there's no risk of them attempting to destroy the building in order to bring the player down. They just dig straight to the player's X coordinate then walk in circles because they don't know to do anything else.

    Minibikes cause the same problem. Minibikes have incredible durability, allow the player to drop from basically any high and take barely any damage and gas is very abundant. In previous alphas you could even insta kill any enemy by running into them. Once a player gets one they become "completely" safe. If anything undesirable approaches them they can just jump on it and drive away. This applies to 7 day hordes as well. Just drive around until morning comes. They even trivialize finding resources since time is no longer a concern. TFP is even talking about adding flying vehicles. They will break the game even more than minibikes do.
    Last edited by ArcticPrism; 02-18-2018 at 04:08 AM.

  14. #329
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Only if the flying machines are available on Day One....

  15. #330
    Colony Founder RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcticPrism View Post
    These suggestions sound more like ways to punish players for wanting to build underground bases rather than challenge them. I mean, the whole purpose of having a sandbox game is to make it your own and have fun in your own way. There's nothing wrong with players wanting a safe place to rest or store their items. They have to go out eventually if they want to do something besides stay in their base.

    Building bases inside of skyscrapers or stilts is no different than being underground. Zombies can't reach the top and due to their lack of AI, there's no risk of them attempting to destroy the building in order to bring the player down. They just dig straight to the player's X coordinate then walk in circles because they don't know to do anything else.

    Minibikes cause the same problem. Minibikes have incredible durability, allow the player to drop from basically any high and take barely any damage and gas is very abundant. In previous alphas you could even insta kill any enemy by running into them. Once a player gets one they become "completely" safe. If anything undesirable approaches them they can just jump on it and drive away. This applies to 7 day hordes as well. Just drive around until morning comes. They even trivialize finding resources since time is no longer a concern. TFP is even talking about adding flying vehicles. They will break the game even more than minibikes do.
    Some questions:

    Do you also perceive zombies as a way to "punish" players? What about hunger or temperature? If you don't, how come all of the suggestions that have been written in this thread seem to you like ways to punish players for wanting to build underground bases?

    If a sandbox game is "making it your own and having fun in your own way", should someone, who is not fond of the "playstyle" that includes zombies/hunger/temperature etc or any specific survival mechanic, protest because the game is (also) a "sandbox" game? Couldn't that person follow your logic and claim that any of these mechanics are ways to punish the players of his playstyle, since his playstyle could be *anything*?

    Doesn't the debug mode already offer your definition of a sandbox game? You can literally do anything in it, play normally, take damage, toggle invincibility on demand, get items through the menu or the normal way. Enable it and you get the perfect sandbox for every freaking taste.

    If you were aware of the debug mode, are you aware that this game is not only a sandbox game but it is survival as well? Have you thought that someone else may want to play this game because it was advertised as a survival game? Have you read the previous replies in this thread (one above your post too) explaining how an on-demand god mode that is the underground, essentially takes away their choice for going underground (not to mention it is not even optional) and forces them to make self-imposed make-believe rules to avoid it because it lacks a main aspect the game was advertised for?

    Just because there are more specific ways to nullify the survival in this survival (as advertised) game, can this be an excuse to look away from the easiest way to do it, especially one that includes a huge non-optional part of the game with POIs included?
    Last edited by RestInPieces; 02-18-2018 at 06:17 AM.

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