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Thread: More imersive weapons

  1. #31
    Colony Founder Brian9824's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGT View Post
    I guess a good deal of us will have to rely on modders (or do the work ourselves) if we want to see honest investment into the firearms. If I remember correctly, part of the problem is that 7dtd is still supporting 32 bit rigs and runs into limitations there. At some point, you gotta cut the cord for legacy systems, but perhaps 7dtd isn't there as it seems like a lot of users are still plugging away on 32 bit systems.

    The point is that weapons play a large role in the game but seems a little generic considering the game is a first-person builder/shooter at it's core. Oh well. *Sigh*
    Again, what can you do with an M16 that you can't do with one of dozens of other assault rifles? How would having an AK-47 change your gameplay in any way versus an M16?

    With the upcoming mods for weapons your generic assault rifle can behave like thousands of other guns by modifying it with the appropriate mods.

  2. #32
    Ranger caatalyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian9824 View Post
    Again, what can you do with an M16 that you can't do with one of dozens of other assault rifles? How would having an AK-47 change your gameplay in any way versus an M16?

    With the upcoming mods for weapons your generic assault rifle can behave like thousands of other guns by modifying it with the appropriate mods.
    I don't get this argument to delegitimise the request for more guns in the game?

    I mean if you're going to compare two very different assault rifles like that then we could probably make the case for the blunt melee weapons. Why have a spiked club when we can just have an iron club? Why even bother having anything other than your fists? They do exactly the same as what every other weapon does right? ....

    Personally I’d like to see a few additional assault rifles and maybe an LMG and I’ll tell you why;

    - Each additional gun will have it’s own statistics (fire rate / range / usable mods / damage). For some players it’s nice to have a weapon that suits your play style and guns could be diversified a bit more with the changes coming to guns in a17. In a game where one of the primary focuses is to kill stuff, the more ways we can do this the better.

    - Some folks will just enjoy the different aesthetic / cosmetic that comes with different weapons

    - More weapons = more loot in the world to find and this adds longevity to the game. Some of these new weapons could be made rare / end-game content and even become a player driven quest to get them.

    - More weapons could compliment the new mod system coming. Maybe some scopes can only work with certain guns, same with silencers… maybe some guns can take less mods than others. There are so many options here to spice up combat, stealth and to personalise the experience for players.

    The last point alone is enough reason for them to introduce new guns. That said, even if the pimps don’t I’m sure we will see them modded in so I’m not too worried.
    Last edited by caatalyst; 05-31-2018 at 09:03 AM.

  3. #33
    Colony Founder Brian9824's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caatalyst View Post
    I don't get this argument to delegitimise the request for more guns in the game?

    I mean if you're going to compare two very different assault rifles like that then we could probably make the case for the blunt melee weapons. Why have a spiked club when we can just have an iron club? Why even bother having anything other than your fists? They do exactly the same as what every other weapon does right? ....

    Personally I’d like to see a few additional assault rifles and maybe an LMG and I’ll tell you why;

    - Each additional gun will have it’s own statistics (fire rate / range / usable mods / damage). For some players it’s nice to have a weapon that suits your play style and guns could be diversified a bit more with the changes coming to guns in a17. In a game where one of the primary focuses is to kill stuff, the more ways we can do this the better.

    - Some folks will just enjoy the different aesthetic / cosmetic that comes with different weapons

    - More weapons = more loot in the world to find and this adds longevity to the game. Some of these new weapons could be made rare / end-game content and even become a player driven quest to get them.

    - More weapons could compliment the new mod system coming. Maybe some scopes can only work with certain guns, same with silencers… maybe some guns can take less mods than others. There are so many options here to spice up combat, stealth and to personalise the experience for players.

    The last point alone is enough reason for them to introduce new guns. That said, even if the pimps don’t I’m sure we will see them modded in so I’m not too worried.
    Actually as its been said repeatedly more weapons just makes the loot list more bloated. Now instead of 6 ammo types we have 60 ammo types making it harder to find usable stuff. With the current mod system coming it actually completely replaces the need for more guns. The mods are whats rare, not the guns. Some are quest driven, some are boss drops, etc. Those let you tweak your gun making it into the exact gun you want.

    The entire point is that we have limited memory and textures to work with. We have early/end game melee and ranged variants because they are needed and change how you play the game.

    Going from a cheap wooden club to a spiked club lets you dominate in melee. Going from a hunting rifle to a sniper rifle is a massive upgrade.

    Going from a ak-47 with a damage of 100 to an M16 with a damage of 101 does......nothing. Nothing except use up memory that could have been spent on a new zombie type, or a bandit model instead.

    Oh you want your assault rifle to have a 3 round burst, mod it.
    You want your rifle to fire faster - mod it.
    You want your rifle to do more damage mod it.

    I'm sure modders will do it, they can break the game for 32 bit users or remove other assets they don't care about to tweak it. TFP can't unfortunately.

  4. #34
    Ranger caatalyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian9824 View Post
    Actually as its been said repeatedly more weapons just makes the loot list more bloated. Now instead of 6 ammo types we have 60 ammo types making it harder to find usable stuff. With the current mod system coming it actually completely replaces the need for more guns. The mods are whats rare, not the guns. Some are quest driven, some are boss drops, etc. Those let you tweak your gun making it into the exact gun you want.

    The entire point is that we have limited memory and textures to work with. We have early/end game melee and ranged variants because they are needed and change how you play the game.

    Going from a cheap wooden club to a spiked club lets you dominate in melee. Going from a hunting rifle to a sniper rifle is a massive upgrade.

    Going from a ak-47 with a damage of 100 to an M16 with a damage of 101 does......nothing. Nothing except use up memory that could have been spent on a new zombie type, or a bandit model instead.

    Oh you want your assault rifle to have a 3 round burst, mod it.
    You want your rifle to fire faster - mod it.
    You want your rifle to do more damage mod it.

    I'm sure modders will do it, they can break the game for 32 bit users or remove other assets they don't care about to tweak it. TFP can't unfortunately.
    Loot tables are currently poorly executed and need balancing better for the current available weapons and pretty much everything else in the game but that's a whole new topic for a different thread. I don't see this as a deterrent for adding new weapons.

    I can't speak much on the subject of the limitations of the game engine as I've no idea but I do know that modders have already added plenty of extra weapons without problems. Someone just recently released a big weapons mod pack you can find in the mods section.

    I didn't mention the wood club, i mentioned the transition from iron to barbed which isn't that significant. They both are operated by the player virtually the same and offer similar damage outputs. It's no more drastic than two or three assault rifles providing similar statistics. Also, new weapons don't necessarily have to get more and more powerful. Every weapon can have it's own advantages and disadvantages, some of which i tried to point out in my first post.

    As for debating over specific rifles and about why they should or shouldn't be added, i'm not really bothered for this either. We could go at it all day and to be fair on this topic it is just going to become subjective. All I can say here is plenty of other survival games have more than one assault rifle and multiple variations of ammo types and they work just fine. I can't see the negative in doing this other than what you've pointed out about the loot tables which can also be fixed.

    As far as mods goes, this is a great step in the right direction and everything you've pointed out sounds great and I can't wait to do it.

    I'm sure this thread could go on for a life time and still there would be haters on both sides. If they don't come with vanilla i'll look forward to see what comes out of the modding section :-)
    Last edited by caatalyst; 05-31-2018 at 01:46 PM.

  5. #35
    Ranger RavenGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian9824 View Post
    Snipped for space.
    You keep dancing around understanding what I'm saying, and then forgetting it completely. Yes, MORE loot is a GOOD thing. MORE items, MORE weapons, MORE of everything is a GOOD thing for players like me who like customization, collecting, realism, and purposeful looting. That is exactly my point.

    Why do we have different trees? They all give wood, right? I'm going back in circles here and in the end, it comes down to the limitations of the game's engine which hurts, seeing that it can't handle torches well (among other things) and is limiting what could be a major component of the game due to arguments "because we need another zombie type". All things equal, I'd rather a new zombie type less than a new weapon type, and you probably feel the opposite way. And that's fine - to each their own. Simply saying "mod it" is a boring excuse that could be used for half the stuff people ask for.

    The request for more diverse weapons, from me, is no longer a request but a lamentation on what could make the game more enjoyable from my perspective. I use probably 1 melee weapon because the melee combat is clunky and disjoint, and because I'd rather use a firearm (which I can kept fed) rather than risking infection from a bite from a zombie halfway across the room. It is what it is, and I love the game despite the bugs.

    Thank you Caatalyst for getting what I was saying. Yes, more is better.

  6. #36
    Colony Founder Brian9824's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGT View Post
    You keep dancing around understanding what I'm saying, and then forgetting it completely. Yes, MORE loot is a GOOD thing. MORE items, MORE weapons, MORE of everything is a GOOD thing for players like me who like customization, collecting, realism, and purposeful looting. That is exactly my point.

    Why do we have different trees? They all give wood, right? I'm going back in circles here and in the end, it comes down to the limitations of the game's engine which hurts, seeing that it can't handle torches well (among other things) and is limiting what could be a major component of the game due to arguments "because we need another zombie type". All things equal, I'd rather a new zombie type less than a new weapon type, and you probably feel the opposite way. And that's fine - to each their own. Simply saying "mod it" is a boring excuse that could be used for half the stuff people ask for.

    The request for more diverse weapons, from me, is no longer a request but a lamentation on what could make the game more enjoyable from my perspective. I use probably 1 melee weapon because the melee combat is clunky and disjoint, and because I'd rather use a firearm (which I can kept fed) rather than risking infection from a bite from a zombie halfway across the room. It is what it is, and I love the game despite the bugs.

    Thank you Caatalyst for getting what I was saying. Yes, more is better.
    I'm being pretty darn direct. In your OPINION more loot is good. In reality having too many choices is detrimental and its been proven thru numerous studies that it negatively effects people.

    Again i'm not sure why you keep making ridiculous comparisions like comparing trees and building to guns. The game has to look nice, the environment, the buildings, etc is a major aspect of the game. Whether your character is holding an Ak47 or a M16 is not a major part of the game, its 100% cosmetic.

    You also keep dancing around the fact that the mods basically make the need for more weapons obsolete as there will be millions of combinations available.

  7. #37
    Nomad themirror's Avatar
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    making it simple: My opinion >>>> all other opinions

    -"We NEED more weapons"
    "Wait until A17 arrives, the weapons will have customization"
    "No, I NEED more weapons"

  8. #38
    Reconstructionist Dimpy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGT View Post
    You keep dancing around understanding what I'm saying, and then forgetting it completely. Yes, MORE loot is a GOOD thing. MORE items, MORE weapons, MORE of everything is a GOOD thing for players like me who like customization, collecting, realism, and purposeful looting. That is exactly my point.
    I see that you like the idea of having more guns because it complicates inventory management and makes looting more interesting, but I fail to see how being able to choose between say, multiple assault rifles would make the minute-to-minute combat more fun.

  9. #39
    Reconstructionist Dimpy's Avatar
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    RavenGT how many guns do you want added to the game? Brian seems to think you want 60 guns total.

  10. #40
    Colony Founder Pille's Avatar
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    Imo I would wait for the experimental of A17 and for improved weapon physics before asking for new weapons because the true impact of the announced gun mod system is not clear to me and the current physics doesn't seems to be capable to represent more than the most basic weapon properties. Afaik things like velocity of projectiles, penetrating power and other stuff are not properly simulated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian9824 View Post
    I'm being pretty darn direct. In your OPINION more loot is good. In reality having too many choices is detrimental and its been proven thru numerous studies that it negatively effects people.
    Maybe, but does 'more loot' automatically imply that you have 'too many choices'? That's a highly questionable reasoning and I doubt that you can simply transfer the results of these (not specified) studies to the situation in 7dtd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian9824 View Post
    I'm sure modders will do it, they can break the game for 32 bit users or remove other assets they don't care about to tweak it. TFP can't unfortunately.
    Afaik the Factorio devs have dropped the 32 bit support without refunding the game and one of the moderators told me that 32 bit support "likely won't be around for long unless A17 gets a fair amount of optimization", so I am not sure that they really cannot break it for 32 bit users... Do you have any references? (Not very important to me but I am curious...)


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian9824 View Post
    Again i'm not sure why you keep making ridiculous comparisions like comparing trees and building to guns. The game has to look nice, the environment, the buildings, etc is a major aspect of the game. Whether your character is holding an Ak47 or a M16 is not a major part of the game, its 100% cosmetic.
    Let's assume you're correct and weapon variety is not a major part of the game (regardless of the vagueness of this term). And let us further assume that pushing this aspect can harm other more important (major) aspects (more important to whom?). Does this mean that we cannot discuss the suggestion without being constantly bothered? I would to love to follow an interesting discussion that is not hindered by these little 'again dances' where you repeat your opinion over and over and over and over again unable to agree to disagree and leave it at that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian9824
    Again ... its 100% cosmetic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian9824
    They all do the same thing
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian9824
    Again, what can you do with an M16 that you can't do with one of dozens of other assault rifles?
    I bet everybody here understands your point of view and arguments but some continue to disagree with you because they have different preferences and opinions. It's just plain unconstructive to constantly repeat the same points. Sometimes there're no objectively correct opinion that has to be generally accepted.
    Last edited by Pille; 06-01-2018 at 03:24 AM.

  11. #41
    Gray Thematic Gipothegip's Avatar
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    I think a few more variants could make the game more interesting, but I agree with Brian that there are some limitations to what would be feasible, and at some point it becomes cosmetic. However, there are some things I feel are missing, like a burst rifle or a semi-auto rifle for example; I feel we do have some open niches to allow for gun variants that are more than slight stat variations.

    I personally like the idea of the weapon modding system, and can't wait to see how that pans out. That will at least add some variation to how the weapons handle, so it will be an improvement to the combat, which is what I'm more so concerned with.

  12. #42
    Colony Founder Brian9824's Avatar
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    As far as a dev response don't have a post atm. I think it was Roland who mentioned they had to work within the 4gb limit that 32 bit systems had. Now if they do drop support for it then that would free up a lot of memory they could use for other stuff, but until they say that they are doing it then its safer to assume they aren't.

    The entire point ive been making is that the mods in A17 are going to create the variability in gun stats that many people want with different rarities.

    That plus the dev's have been quite clear that they don't intend to make more guns and will leave it up to modders to do so.

    As for whether too much is too much, if more cosmetic guns are added for the sake of adding them at the expense of actual features that improve the gameplay then its an issue. If they said we are adding a selection of 20 shirts instead of bandits there would be an uproar, so adding 20 gun skins is basically the same thing. Once the game is closer to release and they aren't adding features in, they've optimized and compressed all their textures, get occlusion working, etc there might be more texture memory available and then maybe everyone can be happy.

    But until then we have the mods for a reason and we have whats sounding like a really kick ass mod system that will really make the guns stand out coming soon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipothegip View Post
    I think a few more variants could make the game more interesting, but I agree with Brian that there are some limitations to what would be feasible, and at some point it becomes cosmetic. However, there are some things I feel are missing, like a burst rifle or a semi-auto rifle for example; I feel we do have some open niches to allow for gun variants that are more than slight stat variations.

    I personally like the idea of the weapon modding system, and can't wait to see how that pans out. That will at least add some variation to how the weapons handle, so it will be an improvement to the combat, which is what I'm more so concerned with.
    I THINK mods will allow you to change firing modes of guns. I'm not 100% sure on that but i thought I heard it mentioned in one of the dev posts or videos.

  13. #43
    Fun Pimps Staff Gazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lockspur View Post
    The AK is a much more simple machine, and there's millions of them out in the world...which is probably why they chose to include it in the game. That, and it's easier to assign 2 guns to 7.62mm. If they had an AR, that would just add another caliber to the mix.
    Basically this. (and it's 3 guns)
    We also dropped the 10mm ammo because it was useless clutter.

    And that round robin about weapon customisation - did no one notice that A17 has that?
    Why keep trying to convince anyone that A17 should have an A17 feature?

  14. #44
    Colony Founder Brian9824's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazz View Post
    Basically this. (and it's 3 guns)
    We also dropped the 10mm ammo because it was useless clutter.

    And that round robin about weapon customisation - did no one notice that A17 has that?
    Why keep trying to convince anyone that A17 should have an A17 feature?
    I think the issue is that even if you can mod an AK so it behaves exactly like an M16, some people want it to be called an M16 and have a different model.

  15. #45
    Fun Pimps Staff Gazz's Avatar
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    And developers will keep saying "mod it".
    To shoot or not to shoot? That is the question. Not how the rifle is textured.

    If you must have an apple-pie-coloured M1 rifle wrapped in a confederate flag (go team slavery!) then you'll have to put another model in because no one here is going to take that seriously.

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