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Thread: "Civilized PvP system"

  1. #136
    Reconstructionist RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OzHawkeye View Post
    I was not intending on making a generalisation at all. I dislike them just as you seem to do.

    The issue with griefers in PvP is, while only a very small minority of PvP'ers, their effects are relatively large. It only takes one griefer on a server to completely destroy a base down to its last block, bypassing LCB's, clipping through terrain etc.
    And to create lasting unpleasant impressions, true. These can be mitigated though with the right mechanics. For example as I mentioned in the OP the custom plugin I wrote for my MC server allowed only a small percentage of a claimed land to be destroyed, allowing both for raids and making griefing impossible at the same time. I believe there is a solution for everything (at least everything game-related) only limited by imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingSlayerGM View Post
    Bethesda just tried to do what we were talking about: PvE and PvP in the same game at the same time.

    Can't wait to play fallout 76!
    Let's hope it is successful so maybe we can learn something from it (;
    I am pretty confident it will be successful since a lot of money were invested in this project and they hopefully have learned from the mistakes of Ark/Rust/DayZ/H1N1 and other similar games that included pvp. Todd called it a "softcore survival" though, hope it's not too softcore so that survival is engaging enough.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by RestInPieces View Post
    And to create lasting unpleasant impressions, true. These can be mitigated though with the right mechanics. For example as I mentioned in the OP the custom plugin I wrote for my MC server allowed only a small percentage of a claimed land to be destroyed, allowing both for raids and making griefing impossible at the same time. I believe there is a solution for everything (at least everything game-related) only limited by imagination.



    I am pretty confident it will be successful since a lot of money were invested in this project and they hopefully have learned from the mistakes of Ark/Rust/DayZ/H1N1 and other similar games that included pvp. Todd called it a "softcore survival" though, hope it's not too softcore so that survival is engaging enough.
    I am not too enthused about fallout 76. I have a suspicion that it will turn into "elder scrolls online: fallout". Hopefully i will be wrong....

    I had a cannibal role play server set up a while back. i invited a lot of friends, but only a select few were told what it was. The few i told were on team "cannibal" and everyone else was left to fend for themselves. The cannibals would then plot out strategic raids to attack the factions/other players that had no idea what was going on. settings where drop everything on death.

    The problem with PVP is that the lack of end game content holds it back. What is the point to surviving? what is the point to build a giant fortress? So far with multiplayer it is either boring pve or a long term arena death match griefing contest in a giant arena.

  3. #138
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    I am not convinced that a solution to PVP will ever be found. The player winning a PVP battle will never feel like they are griefing. Players who lose quickly to other players and then being raided will feel like the player is cheating. Having the anonymity of not being in person lets people feel like they can say what they want. This is the toxic trash talk that happens. Creating systems to counter this will just piss off the hardcore PVPer's who feel that the game constrains them.

    Really the issue is that people can feel how they want, and act how they feel the should be able to act. Think of the book "Lord of the Flies". It is only the pressure of society and it's established norms that keep things in check. Games like this require active and fair administrators for PVP to work. If a player has a connection to a servers community and fears social repercussions from that community, they will follow the rules and not be toxic.

    Really what is needed are good tools for the administrators to find the truth of a conflict and enforce the rules they have established. With good tools, an admin can swing the stick justly and help shape their communities way of thinking. If all the players on a server are reasonable , respectful, and overall just being decent, then it doesn't matter the rules of a game.

    That's just my 2 dukes.

  4. #139
    Colony Founder Siveria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazz View Post
    IMO, a "ritualised" or moderated PVP system is likely to work better for 7DTD because the core of the game is heavy on progression and building.

    This isn't Team Counterfield 7 where you hop in and kill bozos.

    The "problem" here is the strong following of co-op / PVE players who for the most part still want to play the game instead of abandoning that and switching to a radically different playstyle just because it's PVP.
    Are these people all wrong?
    These are players and fans of the game so bugger that notion!

    _Could_ the game "be better for PVP"? I guess so. But IMO that takes a different rule set and as mentioned before, some system of quicker building/repairing.
    I actually strongly dislike pvp in survival type games, as the point of most of them is to survive vs the environment, once you throw pvp in there, it just becomes a gankfest. Don't try to say it doesn't it ALWAYS ends up this way no matter what kind of rules they try to do. Will to Live Online has a thing where if you pk someone in cold blood anyone can hunt you for a while with no penalty, and this still doesn't deter greifing and such at all, they just do it all the more, and now aim for new players even more that have no chance in hell to actually kill them.

    The best way to put pvp in these games, is to have a seperate zone for it, that once you walk into it, its open pvp. I used to play a mmorpg that did this, most of the game is pve, however, there is a open pvp zone where rare resources only spawn there, and you have to build and protect extractors from other factions to get the rare mats. The fuel to run said extractors are also made by players, as almost all items in the game are player made. So even someone who doesn't wanna pvp can get in on it by providing fuel to sell to the pvpers. Full open pvp never works in a game these days as most pvpers have no respect for any other player in todays gaming world. It was different years ago. I used to play alot of open pvp games back then and they never had the greifing problems the games do today.


    For me I don't mind open pvp if there is no item loss for me if I get ganked, and if my base can't be nuked.. well the base thing depends, if its fast to rebuild its not so bad, like say fortnights pve side, its easy to rebuild. But in 7 days to die? hell no it takes way to much time to build and gather stuff only for a player to destroy it in minutes. Players only need a 1 wide 2 high entry to get into your base. I';ve never been a fan of pvp systems that force loss of progression when you get killed by another player, by item loss or other such things, as it just fuels greifers to do it more. Even more so if the items you drop can be looted by said greifer.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siveria View Post
    I actually strongly dislike pvp in survival type games, as the point of most of them is to survive vs the environment, once you throw pvp in there, it just becomes a gankfest. Don't try to say it doesn't it ALWAYS ends up this way no matter what kind of rules they try to do. Will to Live Online has a thing where if you pk someone in cold blood anyone can hunt you for a while with no penalty, and this still doesn't deter greifing and such at all, they just do it all the more, and now aim for new players even more that have no chance in hell to actually kill them.

    The best way to put pvp in these games, is to have a seperate zone for it, that once you walk into it, its open pvp. I used to play a mmorpg that did this, most of the game is pve, however, there is a open pvp zone where rare resources only spawn there, and you have to build and protect extractors from other factions to get the rare mats. The fuel to run said extractors are also made by players, as almost all items in the game are player made. So even someone who doesn't wanna pvp can get in on it by providing fuel to sell to the pvpers. Full open pvp never works in a game these days as most pvpers have no respect for any other player in todays gaming world. It was different years ago. I used to play alot of open pvp games back then and they never had the greifing problems the games do today.


    For me I don't mind open pvp if there is no item loss for me if I get ganked, and if my base can't be nuked.. well the base thing depends, if its fast to rebuild its not so bad, like say fortnights pve side, its easy to rebuild. But in 7 days to die? hell no it takes way to much time to build and gather stuff only for a player to destroy it in minutes. Players only need a 1 wide 2 high entry to get into your base. I';ve never been a fan of pvp systems that force loss of progression when you get killed by another player, by item loss or other such things, as it just fuels greifers to do it more. Even more so if the items you drop can be looted by said greifer.
    Your not going to like fallout 76 then, as part of the gameplay will be finding nuke sites and using the codes to launch orbital strikes on player bases. Basically it will turn into a buggier version of a modded minecraft nukecraft server.

  6. #141
    Reconstructionist RestInPieces's Avatar
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    I hereby ressurect this thread from the dead, but with good reason.

    Here's fallout's 76 recently announced pvp system.
    As for PvP, you can't be killed if you're under level 5. This is the point where PvP begins in Fallout 76. "We want this element of danger, and it sounds weird to say, without griefing," Howard said at QuakeCon 2018. When you initially shoot a player who hasn't started a conflict with you, you do a small amount of damage, compared by Howard to "slapping someone in a bar." If a fight begins between two willing players, there's a cap reward based on the level of the target. Getting revenge on a player who has previously killed you will double the reward.

    You can label your character pacifist if you're looking to avoid griefers, and if someone starts a fight anyway, you can choose to ignore or block that player. If someone kills you and you didn't want to participate in that fight, they'll get no reward. In fact, they'll become a wanted target, with a bounty coming out of their own caps, plus they'll be marked on the map with a red star and won't be able to see the other players on the map coming to get them. Sounds like a pretty decent griefing solution for an open world game.
    Too lenient for my tastes, but it seems they as well believe that pvp can actually work towards enriching the survival experience, with the right mechanics in place to encourage/discourage certain player behaviors and prevent griefing. And keep in mind, this is a game intended for a mainstream casual audience. Who would imagine.
    Last edited by RestInPieces; 1 Week Ago at 02:36 PM.

  7. #142
    Inventor KingSlayerGM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RestInPieces View Post
    Too lenient for my tastes, but it seems they as well believe that pvp can actually work towards enriching the survival experience, with the right mechanics in place to encourage/discourage certain player behaviors and prevent griefing. And keep in mind, this is a game intended for a mainstream casual audience. Who would imagine.
    I agree 100%!
    And I am very curious to try it and see what the general audience think about this.

  8. #143
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    The problem is that griefers usually find a way around it. Admins that are constantly online are the only way to protect people from griefers. Sad but true.

  9. #144
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RestInPieces View Post
    I hereby ressurect this thread from the dead, but with good reason.

    Here's fallout's 76 recently announced pvp system.


    Too lenient for my tastes, but it seems they as well believe that pvp can actually work towards enriching the survival experience, with the right mechanics in place to encourage/discourage certain player behaviors and prevent griefing. And keep in mind, this is a game intended for a mainstream casual audience. Who would imagine.
    Sounds interesting. What's REALLY interesting is that Joel is very interested in Fallout 76. You can bet he will be assessing the success vs failure of this system to see what might work well in this game. Fallout has always been stated as a huge inspirational source for the game so if some of these measures end up being successful I would not be surprised if he didn't build upon them for this game once their attention turns towards PvP.

  10. #145
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    "people aren't nice in a zombie apocalpyse!"

    imagine

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