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Thread: "Civilized PvP system"

  1. #1
    Reconstructionist RestInPieces's Avatar
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    "Civilized PvP system"

    Most people have linked PvP to griefing, harassing and general toxicity and I don't blade them for that. It is a fact that unchecked PvP servers especially in a voxel game like this quickly devolve into a toxic cesspool of hostility and frustration. My belief though is that even such a thing, with the right systems in place, can be exploited towards player enjoyment and immersion even without constant moderation.

    (I had also successfully managed to make it work in a custom map minecraft server I used to run back in the day, by writing a small plugin that allowed other players to destroy only a small percentage (I think it was around 0.03% which made for quite a few blocks) of blocks in a claimed chunk to make raids viable without griefing. Players looted the most valuable blocks or made their way to the base's chests)

    Humor me and let's suppose 7dtd had a good grief-proof PvP system in place (it already has some elements), how would it be like? Feel free to add stuff.


    Claimed land and raiding:
    -Ciaimed land tied to the owner's party. Blocks/items in that area cannot be destroyed by other players, while all of the people in the owner's party are offline.
    -Other players can only destroy a small percentage of blocks (recorded as "raided" when destroyed) that slightly increases depending on the percentage of people that are online from the owner's party.
    -Increased claimed block durability but not by a huge margin.
    -Grace period of invulnerability for claimed lands of players that have recently joined and an extended period of decreased percentage of number of destructible blocks in their claimed land.
    -Killing players from the owner's party slightly increases the percentage of destructible blocks up to a random point.
    -The recorded number of the "tagged as raided" blocks that were destroyed in a claimed area (always within the percentage cap) slowly decrease with time after a certain period of peace (blocks not getting destroyed by others).
    -Looting chests in claimed lands only gives access to a random 1/5 of the items that exist in that chest for other players (that are not in the owner's party).
    -Looting a chest triggers a cooldown and makes it unlootable for a random range period of time (say 12h-72h) for other players.

    General PvP:
    -A player attacking and killing another player without prior provocation will be tagged as a murderer.
    -Each murder will enable a stacking debuff (as in real life) to reflect its realistic psychological effect (with the added whisper effect from a1).
    -Each murder will reduce your reputation with traders, involving higher prices up to denial of trade and even hostility. Could also affect quests or quest availability.
    -Killing a murderer has no penalties.
    -The victim will be able to pay a small price in order to put a bounty on the murderer enabling bandit spawns tracking the murderer (when they are implemented).
    -Other players will also be able to take up the bounties and be rewarded when they kill the murderer.
    -Players who recently joined will have a grace period of being extempted from PvP.

    Can PvP be salvaged? Try to be constructive when replying instead of saying "no, PvP is griefing" etc.
    Last edited by RestInPieces; 1 Week Ago at 04:58 PM.

  2. #2
    Colony Founder Kurogo's Avatar
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    IMO, this is the cause of the people who aren't prepared for sandbox pvp equating pvp with greifing. They want to pvp on their preconceived notions of what it "should" be, and when they get killed outside of their own rules, they can't handle it. A server like you describe might be a better fit for them, but I wouldn't really call it a "good" pvp system, it's just structured.

  3. #3
    Reconstructionist RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurogo View Post
    IMO, this is the cause of the people who aren't prepared for sandbox pvp equating pvp with greifing. They want to pvp on their preconceived notions of what it "should" be, and when they get killed outside of their own rules, they can't handle it. A server like you describe might be a better fit for them, but I wouldn't really call it a "good" pvp system, it's just structured.
    The things I mentioned can only be mods/plugins/mechanics though, not rules. They can't be possibly enforced as rules. And a good ruleset in general is great, but you need 24/7 moderation and even then you can't control everything much less these complicated conditions. And they are for players who enjoy to pvp wihout all the toxicity/griefing. Players who want zero pvp can still choose a no friendly fire option. Back in my minecraft server though I managed to make everyone enjoy pvp with a combination of rules and plugins, even players who hated pvp with a passion and were adamadant about wanting to have their own rules on how and when to pvp.

  4. #4
    Reconstructionist KingSlayerGM's Avatar
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    Hello,
    I am a PvP player and I find this topic very interesting.
    IMO PvP makes the game a lot more interesting, challenging, fun and gives it longevity. I made most of the friends, I play this game with, in online PvP servers.

    I have been thinking for a long time about this idea of making PvP more, as you call it, "civilized". I think that this could be key to avoid having toxic communities like in many other PvP games (rust ). Guys think about it: you actually don't need good bandit AI, if you have a balanced PvP experience. Since AI is not human-like yet, it is a lot better to interact with a human than an NPC, (given that the human behaves positively).Guys seriously, we don't need NPC factions, if we have human ones... think about how many MMOs have this kind of mechanic.

    So yes, a civilized PvP experience would be awesome in my opinion and the game should have some features that enforce this.

    I like some of your proposals. The bounty system is excellent! Also the fact that your reputation with traders decreases with killings! These are VERY good features!
    I don't like much the idea of having a cap in blocks that I can destroy in a base though.. cause I could be stuck inside

    I also agree with your idea that people who don't like pvp, would actually enjoy this kind of experience! I wonder what PvE players think about this...

    KingSlayerGM
    Last edited by KingSlayerGM; 1 Week Ago at 01:18 PM.

  5. #5
    Inventor Morloc's Avatar
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    ...or the Pimps could just introduce Paintball guns for a truly civilized PvP experience!

    You could have several colors of paint, and perhaps even paintballs with textures and patterns!


    -Morloc

  6. #6
    Reconstructionist RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingSlayerGM View Post
    IMO PvP makes the game a lot more interesting, challenging, fun and gives it longevity.Guys think about it: you actually don't need good bandit AI, if you have a balanced PvP experience. Since AI is not human-like yet, it is a lot better to interact with a human than an NPC, (given that the human behaves positively).Guys seriously, we don't need NPC factions, if we have human ones...
    I don't like much the idea of having a cap in blocks that I can destroy in a base though.. cause I could be stuck inside
    I mostly enjoy PvE but I like the realism in PvP - it "completes" the set of a post-zombie apocalypse world. And as you said, it offers longevity and players would make much better bandits than AI bandits. The being stuck possibility should have an easy workaround, but there has to be a system in place that makes griefing impossible since this is also a building game. The block percentage/chunk was the solution I had found in my minecraft server, I am sure though there might be better ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morloc View Post
    ...or the Pimps could just introduce Paintball guns for a truly civilized PvP experience!

    You could have several colors of paint, and perhaps even paintballs with textures and patterns!


    -Morloc
    And cotton clubs for civilized melee combat!

  7. #7
    Colony Founder Kurogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RestInPieces View Post
    The things I mentioned can only be mods/plugins/mechanics though, not rules. They can't be possibly enforced as rules. And a good ruleset in general is great, but you need 24/7 moderation and even then you can't control everything much less these complicated conditions. And they are for players who enjoy to pvp wihout all the toxicity/griefing. Players who want zero pvp can still choose a no friendly fire option. Back in my minecraft server though I managed to make everyone enjoy pvp with a combination of rules and plugins, even players who hated pvp with a passion and were adamadant about wanting to have their own rules on how and when to pvp.
    Well, as I referenced it simply being called structured, I think that it would be better as either a mod, or possible through options. Everyone has their own level of tolerance to buildings being destroyed or karma systems.

  8. #8
    Reconstructionist Krhymez's Avatar
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    I think a "Karma" system would be cool.


    BUT i do not agree with a debuff to wellness from killing others. If anything a "luck" buff for good karma would be enough.

    -Bounty system would be nice
    -Good vs Bad system would be good

    OR... it would be really cool if they added 0,0 wastelands back. Then an option to make a Radius around 0,0 a warzone. If you go into that zone, PVP and rading is on. outside of that zone it is not.

  9. #9
    Reconstructionist RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krhymez View Post
    I think a "Karma" system would be cool.


    BUT i do not agree with a debuff to wellness from killing others. If anything a "luck" buff for good karma would be enough.

    -Bounty system would be nice
    -Good vs Bad system would be good

    OR... it would be really cool if they added 0,0 wastelands back. Then an option to make a Radius around 0,0 a warzone. If you go into that zone, PVP and rading is on. outside of that zone it is not.
    Yes, that I didn't literally mean a debuff to wellness tbh, but a debuff that would reflect mental distress discouraging players to kill without thought, without reason and harassing others. From my experience, such a thing is unfortunately necessary to prevent that.

    As for the 0,0 wasteland, it would surely be something interesting, especially if that place contained something special and you had to tread on dangerous territory to get it (like a chopper landing to leave valuable supplies on building roofs every once in a while). I was never a fan of "battlegrounds" or boxed pvp though, as they are not that immersion-friendly.

  10. #10
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    99% a PvE player here and I like all of your suggestions. I'm playing on a PvP server currently for the first time but only because it has total land claim protection. Thus PvP happens only out in the game world and no raiding is possible. As long as there are some servers with this setup I'd stick to them even if a system like what you suggest was allowed for in a modded setup But, I think other PvE oriented players might be inclined to give a server using your ideas a shot and it would allow for more options among the different range of players.

  11. #11
    Reconstructionist Katitof's Avatar
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    And I firmly believe devs should put a grand total of zero effort of improving anything pvp related.

    You like pvp sandox?
    Well, its not like there isn't 100 of them already - just pick one.

    Literally ALL of pvp sandbox games turn out the exact same way.
    People KoS, raid(exploit limitations when possible) and game becomes nothing else then amassing resources for pvp while cheezing and ignoring all other threats or aspects of the game.

    You have rust, dayz, arc, h1z1 and plenty of others for pvp fun.
    It brings nothing to games with massive pve focus like this one.

    There is a setting to turn if on and you can set traps and turrets to target players, but that should be the extend of devs focusing on pvp.

  12. #12
    Hunter
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    imo there is nothing to improve for pvp, except sound positioning, and lag. its all good

  13. #13
    Reconstructionist Menace312's Avatar
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    I dont disagree with you on the point, that almost anything can be fun in the right context.

    But this is a game.
    I use games to have some easy fun. Not to try and look desperately for ways to make it fun.

    My take on your suggestions is, that it would be awesome for a PvP game mode, but would be horrible for a standard PvE game.
    As such, it would need to be a new feature, which I dont see happening before after gold release.

    Dont mean to be a downer, just realistic.

  14. #14
    Reconstructionist RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katitof View Post
    And I firmly believe devs should put a grand total of zero effort of improving anything pvp related.

    You like pvp sandox?
    Well, its not like there isn't 100 of them already - just pick one.

    Literally ALL of pvp sandbox games turn out the exact same way.
    People KoS, raid(exploit limitations when possible) and game becomes nothing else then amassing resources for pvp while cheezing and ignoring all other threats or aspects of the game.

    You have rust, dayz, arc, h1z1 and plenty of others for pvp fun.
    It brings nothing to games with massive pve focus like this one.

    There is a setting to turn if on and you can set traps and turrets to target players, but that should be the extend of devs focusing on pvp.
    "Games focusing on PvE/PvP" - these are so close-minded terms for this kind of a game. Developers should instead focus on making an immersive virtual world instead. I am not looking for "pvp fun", what I am looking for is that virtual world.
    After all, in the posts above, I mentioned that I actually enjoy PvE mostly. All these games you mentioned have left pvp unchecked - since they are video games after all, it's natural that pve threats would go down the drain and these games turning into pvp playgrounds. Or more accurately, pvp cesspools full of toxicity and griefing - what you are familiar with.

    If I had to choose between that and PvE only, I would definitely choose the latter. But the former doesn't have to be like that and it won't, not with the right limitations and motives.

    About the effort that developers should put in pvp - I believe that there are a lot of things to be fixed in this game before they may do anything with pvp, but after all these things are not new content demanding crazy resources to develop at the expense of all the others, they are just some running scripts with rulesets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menace312 View Post
    I dont disagree with you on the point, that almost anything can be fun in the right context.

    But this is a game.
    I use games to have some easy fun. Not to try and look desperately for ways to make it fun.

    My take on your suggestions is, that it would be awesome for a PvP game mode, but would be horrible for a standard PvE game.
    As such, it would need to be a new feature, which I dont see happening before after gold release.

    Dont mean to be a downer, just realistic.
    Of course these would be in a specific "PvE+PvP" game mode. Why would the option of no friendly fire go away? As said above there are many things that need fixing over pvp but still it's not like a few mechanics for a mode are new content.
    Last edited by RestInPieces; 1 Week Ago at 05:54 PM.

  15. #15
    Fun Pimps Staff Gazz's Avatar
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    IMO, a "ritualised" or moderated PVP system is likely to work better for 7DTD because the core of the game is heavy on progression and building.

    This isn't Team Counterfield 7 where you hop in and kill bozos.

    The "problem" here is the strong following of co-op / PVE players who for the most part still want to play the game instead of abandoning that and switching to a radically different playstyle just because it's PVP.
    Are these people all wrong?
    These are players and fans of the game so bugger that notion!

    _Could_ the game "be better for PVP"? I guess so. But IMO that takes a different rule set and as mentioned before, some system of quicker building/repairing.

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