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Thread: A17 Pointless base building

  1. #16
    Colony Founder Doombringer101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RestInPieces View Post
    I don't see how you can't do the same in A17. Build the lower rooms with your personal quarters etc and build defensive bunkers above them. Building is not dead guys, a lot of people already figured out good ways to defend.
    Agree with Rest, building is not dead by any means, just requires adaptation.
    And not to Aldranon cheaty levels either

  2. #17
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    skylerkae, have you tried a base like this?

    (ignore the low outer wall made out of wet concrete, that was the base being expanded to a new size, it eventually became the new outer wall. It still had the same design afterwards, just fatter.)



    That's the same pattern I've been using since A12 or A13, just with some refinements. It's hard to see in this particular shot, but there are little pathways expanding from the corners of the base with the iron bars that you can shoot through. I stand out there and shoot down at the zombies, as it discouraged them from attacking the walls. Note that the ground floor is isolated from the upper floors, breaking through a small section of wall gets them nothing.

    I have yet to try this against a horde in A17E, however. I'm hoping it's still valid.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalarro View Post
    I havent reached a horde night yet bc of work, but this worries me quite a bit.
    The best thing this game has is the building. Not the only thing ofc, but theres games with better fighting, games with better survival mechanics, games with better scares.... But none with better building (and gathering). And Im not talking about creative building, there are some good games about that. But I couldnt care less about that. I want building that is needed to survive. There is no game that even comes close to the defense building of 7d2d. I love it.

    So I dont know why the funpimps show so much intent on taking the main focus of the game away from the building (their best asset when compŗred to other games) and move it towards combat and some other things, where other games do a better job.
    AMEN!

    They have THE BEST base building game out there... and they want to focus less on buildings and turn it into Fallout... /facepalm.

    Double jump perk is coming in A18!!! confirmed!!! /S

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielishhh View Post
    This is Alpha 17E (<-- "E" for EXPERIMENTAL), not the real Alpha 17.
    But there's a lot of threads that TFP needs to fix.
    As long as they actually do intend to fix it, because all the responses I've seen so far from Roland and Madmole have boiled down to "git gud".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Doombringer101 View Post
    Agree with Rest, building is not dead by any means, just requires adaptation.
    And not to Aldranon cheaty levels either
    Show me the money, my friend. Our valiant OP erected some pretty formidable defenses that got melted in seconds, so unless you are cheesing the AI in some novel way I find it hard to imagine how this is possible. Or perhaps "adaptation" quite literally means cheating?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RestInPieces View Post
    I don't see how you can't do the same in A17. Build the lower rooms with your personal quarters etc and build defensive bunkers above them. Building is not dead guys, a lot of people already figured out good ways to defend.
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that's what I did. I had a defensive bunker which was 5 X 5 blocks with a shooting platform on top, with spikes around it. There was a 1 X 1 shaft in the middle where I was digging down to make a store room that might surivive if the base fell on a horde night. A wandering horde (not Blood Moon) ran up next to my bunker in the middle of the night and tunnelled down through 30 blocks of dirt & stone to where I was. I got out and sealed the whole shaft off fast.

    I'm only going to build above ground now, and I will keep all my crafting stations and loot stores well away from my defensive/overnight base.

    Nor am I going to be mining for ores underground now - too dangerous. Boulders FTW.

    Here's my current base, by the way:A17_199.jpg

    And here's the awesome hole they made: A17_199_OneGloriousHole.jpg
    Last edited by Dazrael21; 11-24-2018 at 08:39 PM. Reason: Adding pictures & detail ;)

  6. #21
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    @OP: Thanks for the detailed testing and feedback. What difficulty level were you on? Was it default? Also did you have it on 8 zombies or was it higher?

    If you wouldnít mind Iíd be interested in you testing one of those bases at Adventurer and/or Scavenger difficulty and see how it goes. Iím wondering if perhaps Nomad should be described as normal difficulty for recommended 2-4 players and maybe Adventurer should be the new normal for solo play. Iíd like to see if you could defend one of those bases you described as a solo player at the slightly reduced difficulty.

  7. #22
    Super Moderator Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giltirn View Post
    As long as they actually do intend to fix it, because all the responses I've seen so far from Roland and Madmole have boiled down to "git gud".
    is possible.
    Cant speak for Madmole but Iíve been consistently saying that the Fun Pimps were not going to revise their design based on the first 3 days of kneejerk reactions to something new. Experimental is 3-5 weeks during which time they will experiment and make changes and work on balance. The changes you want MAY happen or at least a compromise but they arenít going to be on demand. For that youíll have to mod it yourself.

  8. #23
    Colony Founder RestInPieces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giltirn View Post
    Show me the money, my friend. Our valiant OP erected some pretty formidable defenses that got melted in seconds, so unless you are cheesing the AI in some novel way I find it hard to imagine how this is possible. Or perhaps "adaptation" quite literally means cheating?
    I will when I get to play enough, but if you search the forums some people already have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazrael21 View Post
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that's what I did. I had a defensive bunker which was 5 X 5 blocks with a shooting platform on top, with spikes around it. A wandering horde (not Blood Moon) ran up next to my bunker in the middle of the night and tunnelled down through 30 blocks of dirt to where I was. I got out and sealed the whole shaft off fast.

    I'm only going to build above ground now, and I will keep all my crafting stations and loot stores well away from my defensive/overnight base.

    Nor am I going to be mining for ores underground now - too dangerous. Boulders FTW.
    Make one or more clear/open entrances on the surface leading to a wide defensive bunker underground. Build your personal quarters under that bunker so that it covers them. The AI should prefer pathing to you via a clear way. If any zombies hear you while in your personal quarters, they will enter the bunker where you will have traps etc, but do not completely block their way to you. Go up and defend in that bunker. Use a motion sensor to make your life easier.

    Gist is, make clear pathways and try to control their pathing so that they don't dig. Haven't had the time to try that in action yet but it should be working well.

  9. #24
    Inventor Kattla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giltirn View Post
    Show me the money, my friend. Our valiant OP erected some pretty formidable defenses that got melted in seconds, so unless you are cheesing the AI in some novel way I find it hard to imagine how this is possible. Or perhaps "adaptation" quite literally means cheating?
    Difficult to tell what is cheating and what is not. The new AI have quite a predictable behavior,
    and it is sorta easy to figure out how to trick it. Is it cheating to design something that makes use of
    that knowledge, when common sense do not work?
    Last edited by Kattla; 11-24-2018 at 08:53 PM. Reason: formatting.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RestInPieces View Post
    I will when I get to play enough, but if you search the forums some people already have.



    Make one or more clear/open entrances on the surface leading to a wide defensive bunker underground. Build your personal quarters under that bunker so that it covers them. The AI should prefer pathing to you via a clear way. If any zombies hear you while in your personal quarters, they will enter the bunker where you will have traps etc, but do not completely block their way to you. Go up and defend in that bunker. Use a motion sensor to make your life easier.

    Gist is, make clear pathways and try to control their pathing so that they don't dig. Haven't had the time to try that in action yet but it should be working well.
    The short version:
    1. They choose to dig too readily - digging through 30 layers of solid earth and rock is preferable to the AI than going through just two scrap and wood walls to reach an open shaft.
    2. They dig too quickly. It took me ages to dig that deep with pick and shovel. They did it in in seconds with their bare hands.
    3. Wandering hordes can see you through a lot of earth & rock. I would be happy if this privilege was exclusive to the Blood Moon horde.

    The meandering long version:
    This was a random horde that turned up while I was building those personal quarters, not a horde I saw coming and I could have prepared for by going into my defenses and picking them off. They turned up while I was doing the "build your personal quarters under that bunker so that it covers them." part of your plan. When I first heard them, I went up to the bunker because I thought they were on the surface - by then, they were already underground. I couldn't see anything so I assumed the horde had wandered off. I went back down. I heard them again, and realised they were digging down to me.

    The bunker is 5 X 5. I was in a 1 X 1 shaft in the dead-centre of it, about 30 blocks deep. The bunker covered it completely.

    If my bunker/tower was something like 10 X 10 instead of 5 X 5, maybe they would have attacked the walls instead of digging under them. But I don't think I could build something that big (and still be as solid) by day 19/20.

    The only real difference from your defensive bunker over personal quarters plan is that my "defensive bunker" is on the surface. Personally, I prefer to fight them on the surface: more options for escape & less digging. But it seems equivalent to me. If my whole base had been underground, I think they would have done the same thing - they'd run up to the first solid defenses through those clear pathways you mentioned (traps do not stop them, in case you haven't see it yet ), and then I suspect they would evade the defenses by digging further down and beneath them to get to me as I was constructing my 'personal quarters'.

    NB - I'm very happy with A17 by the way, I'm just adjusting. I think I'll have a 'defensive base' and a 'crafting/storage' base that aren't too close to each other. In previous alphas, those two areas would be one base. If a horde turns up at my crafting base, I will try to move them to my defensive base, maybe by shooting them from an elevated walkway or something. Or just jumping down and kiting them

    Or a sky-scraper with concentric rings of defences. I tried that a few months ago in A16 when I first heard about the digging. It worked quite well, but these new super zombies would have smashed that base

  11. #26
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    Another thought I just had: Maybe I was digging too deep, assuming they couldn't see me through the many layers. Instead, I think I might try a storage room just a few layers under my defensive tower, encased in concrete and with a concrete apron at ground level.

    I love this part of each Alpha - figuring out what works and what doesn't; iterating through base designs to find the most practicable and effective.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kattla View Post
    Difficult to tell what is cheating and what is not. The new AI have quite a predictable behavior,
    and it is sorta easy to figure out how to trick it. Is it cheating to design something that makes use of
    that knowledge, when common sense do not work?
    I know that if you start an elevated walkway to your 'shooting platform' from far enough way with a couple of jumps, they show no interest in using it. They go straight for whatever's under the platform. They can't go back too far to go forward, if you know what I mean.
    Last edited by Dazrael21; 11-24-2018 at 09:37 PM.

  12. #27
    Colony Founder Scyris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
    I feel you... One of the things I loved about the game (kind of ashamed to say so) is mining. I could go for hours just gathering resources and finding nitrate and coal and ♥♥♥♥… That’s gone! Made a mine… dug to floor… random zombie apparently heard me at night from the surface (Probably 40-45m from surface), dug down and brought 4-5 friends. No Auger, no heat(forge).

    What!?

    I get the digging down part, but how the hell did he detect/heard me?? (day 9 not even close to Horde Night)
    I was complaining about this as well. The zombies are way to good at detecting the player. I've had zombies from 100m away track me down in a poi on the second floor only because I stepped on a piece of something that made a sound. I was crouched as well. It's kinda bs they are just way to good at finding you no matter what you try.

  13. #28
    Colony Founder Ghostlight's Avatar
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    2 things compound the problem...

    1) Zombies get a block damage bonus if they are hitting a block that other zombies are hitting or trying to hit.

    2) Their AI makes them take the "path of least damage" to the player, meaning many of them will chose the same route and thus head for the same block.

    Do the math.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostlight View Post
    2 things compound the problem...

    1) Zombies get a block damage bonus if they are hitting a block that other zombies are hitting or trying to hit.

    2) Their AI makes them take the "path of least damage" to the player, meaning many of them will chose the same route and thus head for the same block.

    Do the math.
    Yeah, I think it may need tuning a little. I'm not sure why (1) exists at all, as it's got no physical basis - it's like the Z's form some sort of Captain Planet gestalt entity. I had to kite the BM horde around my base to spread them out and and dilute the damage.

    Irrelevant comment: is your user name a DW reference? I remember watching that story ... it was odd.

  15. #30
    Reconstructionist Poojam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielishhh View Post
    This is Alpha 17E (<-- "E" for EXPERIMENTAL), not the real Alpha 17.
    But there's a lot of threads that TFP needs to fix.
    Yea. I think he was noting the things that he expects to be fixed for the real Alpha 17. Ya know, providing feedback as part of the Early Access process. That sorta thing.

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